This was meant to be kept in context: Alertness is of course an interrupt attack that interrupts the OL turn, but it is not usable while a creature swoops down.
Timing Soar/Swoop vs. Riposte
Parathion said:
Could you please cite a place in the rules, where they state that explicit immediacy ranks higher than implied?
You are joking right?
You don't think explicit always outranks implicit in any situation? You expect rules to actually have to say this?
Parathion said:
The rules clearly state that the extra range is negated until
after the attack
.
The rules clearly state that the riposte happens after the attack .
Parathion said:
Nonetheless, it is not necessary at all that your explicit immediacy ranks higher, since I maintain that there is nothing to be done regarding the range after the attack. It is already at 5 by the time the feat is eligible to be played, as is plainly written in the rules (again).
But it
isn't
plainly written so in the rules. Show me the part that says "by the time 'after the attack' happens, the range is
already
negated.
(I admit to fault here, in that I said I agree with you when I meant about implied immediacy, but your claim that it was written plainly so in the rules was part of that quote, so I appeared to agree with that, sorry.)
Here is the textual evidence I am using. It is rules/card quotes, which is what textual evidence means in this context! (I assume you mistyped when you said
"You did not present any, ANY,
further textual evidence besides quoting parts of the rules.
"
)
Soar
However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until
after the attack goes off
, at
which point
the monster
flies back up
.
From this we see that "after the attack goes off' is a point, at which the monster 'flies back up' and the extra range ceases to be negated.
Riposte
Play
after a monster has attacked you
with a melee attack.
If able, you may
immediately
attack that monster.
After your attack, the overlord resumes his turn as normal.
From this we see that it is played "after a monster has attacked you" - which is functionally identical to "after the attacks goes off". We also see that the effect is explicitly immediate.
Both the Riposte being played and the monster flying back up
have identical timing
. Both are timed 'after the attack'.
You have
never addressed this
. You have
avoided
addressing it by claiming that the negation of range is 'automatic' and 'not at any point' (nothing to be done) - which is plainly false as the soar rules
clearly tie the attack ending to the monster flying back up, which is a point
.
Both have the same implication of immediacy. Riposte then has an explicit immediacy on top of its implied immediacy. Explicit +Implicit > Implicit.
I've pointed out that you claim one thing with identical timing has already happened before another thing with identical timing. That is a logical fallacy. You ignored this too, just repeated the same false assumptions.
I also note, you have not once quoted rules or card text in any of your posts in this thread.
Corbon said:
Parathion said:
Could you please cite a place in the rules, where they state that explicit immediacy ranks higher than implied?
You are joking right?
You don't think explicit always outranks implicit in any situation? You expect rules to actually have to say this?
Implicit immediacy: DJitD, pg. 19: When a monster is killed, the overlord player simply removes its figure from the board,...
Explicit immediacy: Cleaving: Each time you kill an enemy with a Melee attack, you may spend 1 fatigue to immediately make 1 additional attack with the same weapon.
Both use the same trigger/timing (killing a monster/enemy).
Now, do you really think that the hero may activate Cleaving and attack again before the killed monster was removed from the board?! Wow, that´s tremendous, and pretty useful if the hero also has the Brawler skill.
I don´t expect the rules to state that any type of immediacy ranks higher than another, but also I expect you to back up such a claim in any suitable manner.
Corbon said:
But it
isn't
plainly written so in the rules. Show me the part that says "by the time 'after the attack' happens, the range is
already
negated.
It is right here: "the extra range is negated until after the attack goes off". This means that during the attack, the extra range is negated, and after the attack the negation ceases to exist. As I said so many times before.
Corbon said:
Both the Riposte being played and the monster flying back up
have identical timing
. Both are timed 'after the attack'.
You have
never addressed this
. You have
avoided
addressing it by claiming that the negation of range is 'automatic' and 'not at any point' (nothing to be done) - which is plainly false as the soar rules
clearly tie the attack ending to the monster flying back up, which is a point
.
Of course I addressed this. I explained to you that the part with "flying back up" is merely flavor text. Or could you name the actual game mechanic that deals with a monster flying back up? And please don´t say it is the change of the range from 1 back to 5, since that it already covered by the clause before that.
Corbon said:
Both have the same implication of immediacy. Riposte then has an explicit immediacy on top of its implied immediacy. Explicit +Implicit > Implicit.
See above immediately for immediacy issues.
Corbon said:
I've pointed out that you claim one thing with identical timing has already happened before another thing with identical timing. That is a logical fallacy. You ignored this too, just repeated the same false assumptions.
This is not a logical fallacy. You fail to acknowledge that game states simply can change according to your timeline example.
During the attack = extra range negated = blue timeline
After the attack = extra range applies = Feat card playable = green timeline
Corbon said:
I also note, you have not once quoted rules or card text in any of your posts in this thread.
Well, then please stop discussing, since you obviously did not even read the opening post.
Parathion said:
Well, then please stop discussing, since you obviously did not even read the opening post.
Guilty as charged!
I forgot that you were the OP, so carefully checked every reply you made....
Humblest of apologies, for this part at least.
Thank you for replying.