Hi all. This is my first post here. I am an old grognard with too many years of table top war gaming.. (Started the fall of 1971 / Stalingrad by Avalon Hill, my first wargame....)

I've played and enjoyed the hell out of Squad Leader but no longer have the people around me who played in the past and getting newbies to sit down and go through it is difficult at best. I saw this game at the store and while the price tag raised my eyebrows, yes I understand today vs the 1980s, but to me it still seems pricey.. Anyway, Is this something I am looking for? Still a squad level game with all the fun toys (tanks, planes, special rules, et al) but less time consuming that SL is?

Has anyone on here played both systems?

Thank you.

Mark Tippett

Central Illinois

Slamdunk said:

Hello Mark, and welcome!

I'm an "old" grognard as well, and we've likely played many of the same games. I cut my tactical wargaming teeth with Panzer Leader, and have played plenty of Squad Leader and some ASL.

TOI, while a bit different, delivers a decent Squad Leader "feel", but with toy soldiers and fantastic bits—and fewer rules. If you're a stickler for details, though, TOI may not hit the spot. For instance, armor only has one armor value, nothing for front/side/rear. However, it does—within the confines of the system—provide you with a relatively good simulation.

Over the years I was always "envious" of Axis and Allies, because of all the bits, and often wished for a Squad Leader type of game with all the cool toys. TOI is that game—finally—and of all the Euro-style wargames it comes the closest to giving you that old tactical wargame feel, IMHO.

You should download the rules and give them a read-through—TOI is a great system, and I enjoy it very much.

Thank you for that... Now where can I find the rules to download? I know, I'm such a pain in the ass. But if I can be directed to the right location that would be very cool...

Mark

Hi Mark... check http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=8&esem=4 . That´s the Support section of Tide of Iron.

Best regards

I'm in the exact same boat as you. very difficult to get anyone to play SL anymore. This game certainly scratches that itch wit hplenty of nice parts. The toolbox aspect of the game will provide plenty of legs.

The base game was a little "rough" as far as some people were concerned in these areas.

The soldiers had trouble fitting into the bases smoothly. I didn't find this to be a big problem and the figures after time fit more easily. The newer sets (British) are much improved in the regard and I would imagine the Russians being the same.

The Tiger tank models are just not right - although they function just fine they could have been made better - along with the Pz IV being bigger than the Tiger. Again the expansion miniatures are much better in detail and scale. (Although the T 34 turret could use some work based on the one picture.)

The scenarios in the base game can seem "unbalanced" as some put it but I think you need to approach them from a more historical perspective and adjust your idea of winning and losing. The designer series scenario book is just great and if you've played enough wargames you can easily adjust the base game scenarios or just make your own and have a blast. Plenty of user scenarios can be found here as well. I haven't played through nearly half of them and I've had fun every time.

The game is much easier to bring out to new gamers. I've introduced this to a few young lads and they really enjoy it.

As far as price goes you are definately getting your money's worth once you open the box. You can also skip expansions if needed however I do find the omission of AT guns in the Normandy expansion a little stupid. The Russian expansion had better have AT guns.

Overall the decisions available are true to tactical wargames. There are plenty of tense moments leaving a decent narrative for your after action reports.

Wow, Squad Leader vs Tide of Iron. That is one helluva comparison to try to make. SL and ASL are kinda like the God Father games of Tactical wargames, well...not kinda, they ARE.

ToI is a great game, but compared to SL & ASL, the operative word would be "abstract" as far as ToI is concerned. SL & ASL have, like 100 times the amount of detail compared to ToI, but the trade off is that you'll be able to get new players playing ToI, where you weren't with SL & ASL.

You should check out the Designer Series Scenario book too, Don Greenwood designed one of the scnearios, and he has some interesting designer notes with it. For that matter, John Hill did another of the scenarios in that book, and he's the original designer of SL, with more interesting designer notes from him.

Tide of Iron isn't SL, and it doesn't try to be, but ToI is a ton of fun, and a **** good design in its own right. The direct fire vs suppresive fire option for firing units is a fantastic rule, considering the nature of the design of ToI, which was to be a gateway game for new players.

But you'll find the scenario set ups to be similar in nature & style, you've got your Op fire, concealed units, off board arty (complete with spotter rounds), squad level weapons such as HMGs, flamethrowers, smoke, mortars; AT weapons, mines, bunkers and field fortifications, recon units, engineers, demo teams, LOS, indirect fire and spotters, destructable buildings, pinned units, disrupted units, routed units, leaders and ralling, morale, close assaults, elite infantry, medics, AT guns, air support, higher HQ command, weather, tons of terrain and a boatload of other random events. Again, SL it ain't, but it's got some meat to it.

If you're looking to hook new players, Tide of Iron is your game. The high quality of the components is second to none. Double sided, hard mounted maps boards with lots of terrain overlays. Thick, durable full color counters (there's a lot of them), and top quality playing cards (the deck is divided into like 10 "mini decks", and represents things like OBA, airstrikes and other random events). Full color, durable rulebook that is so loaded with examples that you'll think the rules are more than they are. Full color scenario book is included too, but watch the balance on the OOB scenarios;as it was already mentioned, you'll want to adjust quite a few of them to suit your taste.

Its a gorgeous game to see when it's set up; it definately scores high in the eye candy department with the plastic pieces and map art.

Again though, ToI is a solid, slick design that is fun to play. I don't think you'd be disappointed with it, but everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

I'm a former Panzer Grenadier player, and I love ToI. I'm fully converted over for the same reason stated in the OP, inability to get new players playing. ToI scratches that same itch, and is easy to get new players to play, and more importantly, replay .

I think ToI, along with M44, are great for the wargaming hobby as a whole, solely for their "fun factor" and ability to draw in new players.

With good scenarios, TOI is a very good game. Its simple and fun. I realy enjoy the combination of decent rules and simplicity. However I might add that the bad opening scenarios almost destroyed the game completly. The scenarios have become better, but the first expresion one gets by playing one of the first scenarios is not good. In my opinion they are so bad that they should be replaced by better ones in the standar opening TOI box.

But now to my question, for somebody who has not played ASL and is not afraid of some rules, what does it have to ofer beond TOI? Are there rules available?

Grand Stone said:

Nearly anything that can happen in WWII combat is contained in ASL. It's a monster, but the most realistic simulation out there.

If you're looking for something a little more complicated (or realistic) than TOI, there are a number of options out there—without diving into ASL. Lock 'n Load, Conflict of Heroes, Combat Commander (no vehicles), Advanced Tobruk System, and Valor & Victory are just a few.

As far as I know, you can't download the rules for ASL, but you might be able to find a PDF of the original SL rules. Most of the games above allow you to download their rules.

AnglePark said:

To say SL & ASL is a monster is an understatement!

Don't forget Panzer Grenadier by Avalanche Press, great game as well.

The company who took over running ASL after Avalon Hill went under, I believe have three starter kits for the game. Oh yeah, Multi Man Publishing is the company.

Yeah that is MultiMan Publishing founded by Curt Schilling.. yes the bloody sock wearing former Red Sox pitcher who did in my Cardinals in the 2004 World Series. I saw him at a recent card show in the Chicago area and again thanked him for saving Advanced Squad Leader. His wife still won't let him buy that Tiger tank that is for sale in Europe.

A side note. In the old General magazine from Avalon Hill there was an article about Curt while he was with the Astros about how he would seek opponents across the country to play war games when he came into town. He was and is a HUGE SL and ASL fanatic.

What? Curt Schilling is a wargamer? Thats awesome! I got his autograph at pizza hut a long time ago when he played for the D-backs. Now it means so much more to me.