Hi all,

I have a quick question regarding the destructive capabilities of Titans that I am thinking of using in one of my sessions. Is it plausible for a titan to shoot down and possible destroy a ship in low orbit. I don't know much about the Titan legions and wanted the opinions of those who might. Specifically, could say a warlord or emperor class titan shoot down a Tyranid hive ship in low orbit? How would one of these titans stand up to the swarm. I would think a bio-titan could be a problem but, what if the nids did not expect to face such fire power and did not deploy one to the surface? could a deathwatch kill team with a techmarine who has pilot titan skill even operate one of these behemoths. May current idea is that the kill team finds one of these lost relics from the Emperor's crusade on one of the worlds in the Jericho Reach and with the help of an explorator magos and his retinue, save a doomed planet being consumed by the Tyranid Sworm. Thoughts?

I would say it is possible a Titan might be able to hit a ship in low orbit, but highly improbable. Also, I don't believe the Titans main weaponry is capable of traversing much higher of an angle than a few degrees above the horizon.

As for piloting a Titan, no. Titan pilots and crews are very, very specialized, and the Mechanicus would never allow anyone but one of their own to pilot one of the most holy God Machines. Titan crews have extensive specialty MIU augmentation with the commanders (Princeps) of the largest classes of Titans residing permanently in a fluid cylinder, similar to a Bacta tank in Star Wars, that allows them to be even more in tune with the Titan.

Having a DW team escort a titan crew into hostile territory to recover one could be an interesting scenario. Once the crew is delivered the kill team could be tasked with defending the legs of the Titan from a boarding action while the crew powers it up.

Depends on the Titan, a Warhound Titan with Vulcano Bolters might be able to hit the ship (probably not) but would never be able to damage such a ship since they possibly use the Vulcano as their Turret Rating, an Emperor Class Titan might be another story all together.

Sure are warlord can have volcano cannons and long range missiles but has neither to sensors to targetting systems to fire at something that far away moving that quickly. What's required is Volcanno cannon (one of the few weapons with range and power to bother a star ship) in a specialised mounting known as a defence laser.

The good news is that an Emperor titan has exactly that mounted on it's back (it also has a ship sized lance weapon on it's arm but it's designed to fire that into space). The bad news is any imperial ship is going to have entire batteries of defence lasers and even lances so trading fire isn't really in the titans favour at all.

As for space marines piloting titans, depends on which fluff you're using: early editions, yes. Later editions, No.

As for Titan v Space Ship combat... I'd rule that unless it's VERY low orbit indeed, it would be a no. The problem is ToT. The titan is unlikely to have the sort of targeting systems that a Space Ship or anti-space ship weapon would have. As far as taking fire back frm a star ship???

Storm of Iron has an example of the short of carnage that a single torp can wreak on ground forces. For those that don't have it: when the CSMs realize what's up (or, more accurately, coming down), well... 'Thou Shalt Know Fear."

It depends on the ship and the titan.

A huge swarm-birthing 8-10km long hive ship will almost always win.

An Emperor Titan is fully capable of clearing smalling ships from the space lanes above it, a warlord MIGHT be able to fire into orbit (probably depends on it's shoulder mounts) is wouldn't be great at it. A Warhound could not.

Another thing to think about: if the Titan is damaged the admech will probably want to bring it to a Forge world for repairs.

BaronIveagh said:

Well in Helsreach the Black Templar Jurisian, Master of the Forge, pilots Oberon, the Ordinatus Armageddon, by himself. Albeit at a reduced efficiency.

Personally I have trouble imagining any Titan taking a serious run at a spaceship. If the Emperor Titan actually has a weapon designed to fire at spaceships, fine. That's one gun. I'm sure the ship could return fire with a lot more once it was able to pinpoint the target. I would picture the Emperor Titan playing a support role in unison with other anti-space defense weapons, or possibly a group of Emperor Titans forming a reasonably mobile defense grid, not one Titan taking on star ships by itself. One Titan would be a nuisance for a round or two, then it would be obliterated by everything the space ship could bring to bear. Unless it was a small cruiser or transport ship, I don't think the fight would go on very long.

I wouldn't imagine any other class of Titan could even fire a shot (without modifications specifically for this purpose.) Sci-fi settings like to throw around words like "low-orbit" as if it's close to the planet, and I suppose on an astronomical scale it is pretty close. But it's still several thousand miles above the ground. Even if the weapons can be pointed high enough up and theoretically have the range, you won't be able to acquire a visual lock on all but the biggest ships (read: futile to fight.) You need computers that are designed to target things that far away, and account for changing air pressure and gravity along the way in order to have a hope in hell of even hitting the target. I doubt any weapons would be equipped with such a computer unless they were specifically designed for anti-space combat - you don't generally equip a Glock handgun with a supercomputer designed to guide smart nukes to their target. That's not what a Glock for. According to the thread thus far, it sounds like the Emperor Class is the only Titan that has anything like that.

Now, none of this is to say you can't run the session you have planned. It sounds like a pretty cool idea, it just needs a bit of finesse. Instead of simply putting the players in any old Titan, put them in a special prototype Titan that has more anti-space weapons than normal. Something that's being designed to help specifically fend off Tyranid hive ships (if that's what they're going up against.) The Tyranids are threatening the Empire in way few other aliens ever have, except maybe Chaos. It makes sense they'd devote these sorts of resources to fighting back. Maybe someone had a genius idea about stopping hive ships before they could begin infesting a planet, by dropping a modified Emperor class Titan loaded up with as much anti-space firepower it can handle on the surface.

Perhaps the entire crew was killed (or corrupted by genestealer cultists!), save the bacta-tank commander guy, and he enlists the players to help him control the Titan and destroy the hive ship in this inaugural field test. Each player takes a weapons station, maybe one controls movement and another controls shields. The way you describe this idea, it sounds like it will be an enormous session-long battle to be long remembered. I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not the players have the appropriate skills for something like this. Let them have fun - the commander is giving them instruction where they need it. This is also a convenient excuse for why the players can't take the Titan with them, too - you KNOW at least one of them will ask. Without the commander's help they can't control it, and the commander is of course duty-bound to return the Titan to Mars and report on its performance.

If you'd rather run a battle where the players are more independently mobile, rather than something where they're all sitting in a control room pushing buttons, you could set them up in a squadron of prototype Warhounds, each with one massive anti-space gun as it's only weapon (besides a few anti-personnel bolters, maybe.) Each player moves and shoots his Warhound. Maybe it takes a round or two for the space gun to recharge, during which time they need to try and evade return fire from the ship. Maybe the Warhound even needs to "transform" into some sort of stationary "fire mode" like a seige tank from Starcraft, before it can shoot such a massive gun from such a small chassis. You'll have to come up with other reasons why the players can't keep the titans, but again I wouldn't worry about restricting them based on skills. If you want to run a one-off memorable battle session, you need to make some leeway for the characters' abilities. It's basically guaranteed that not everyone will have what they need.

Thanks to all replies!

After having read the replies thus far, I have decided that a Kill Team commanding a lost Titan from the Emperor's great crusade and shooting down a 8-10 km Hive Ship may be a stretch. I think I am going to go with the Kill Team escorting a Magos’s Explorator team and Princeps through hostile territory to assist with the recovery. The team will remain under constant pressure of the Nid vanguard as they draw closer to the lost titan. I plan on having the Titan ( a Warlord class) be found buried in a deep swamp with only the head protruding out of the ground. Unfortunately for the Kill Team, a group of chaos cultist have been worshiping the “Face” as they call it for decades. The Kill Team will have to eliminate this new threat before the Magos and team can enter the lost Titan. The session will end with the Kill Team making an epic stand against a overwhelming Nid Vanguard force whilst the Magos and Princeps attempt to re-power the Titan and remove decades of Chaos taint. Should the team hold out long enough, the Titan will lumber to life pulling itself out of it’s swampy tomb and obliterate the remaining Vanguard force.

There is a bunch other events leading up to the team meeting the Princeps and Magos and going off to find the Titan, but the above will be the crux of the mission. There are a few loose ends I have not figured out though.

Can Titans propel themselves into orbit to dock with a ship?
If not, how big of a force and what type of transports would be necessary to get the Titan off planet?
How long would this process take, approximately?
How big does an Imperial ship need to be to transport a Titan? (Is a Cruiser capable or do you need something heavier, like a battleship class)

Thanks in advance to all responders!

now that sounds cool. the titan rises out of the mire, i can see it in my head that's been stolen

rbass98 said:

No, all of them require large dropships. The Novel 'Ttanicus' describe them roughly as a building sized ship where the sides 'fall' open to reveal the Titan in a support cradle that also acts as a re-arming and repairing drydock/scaffolding. They require a huge amount of time to prep for launch again though. Basically mounting the titan in it's cradle again, closing up the 'walls', securing everything etc etc... not a 'walk-on-and-go'.

rbass98 said:

See the above; HUGE building sized ships, with probably a ship per Reaver/Warlord titan, Warhounds perhaps in pairs? There's no definitive artwork for them. just roughly imagine a skyscraper with booster- and breaking engines, with three sides falling open and the fourth forming the backbone of the cradle and rearming station.

rbass98 said:

Landing, relatively fast, although not Space Marine drop pod -fast. Rushed; in tens of minutes after touch down. Normally; hours of prepping, decoupling, testing, caring, praying.

Take off; rushed, probably hours. Normally; days, prepping, testing, checking, securing, closing up the ship, praying etc etc. You get the gist. They do NOT want to lose one during transit from/to orbit.

rbass98 said:

Hmm theoretically a cruiser could carry it, though most fluff has them in specific Mechanicus ships that belong to the Titan order. But for sense of story, i guess any ship that has large enough cargo holds or docking bays could house a Titan Dropship, although it would be a rare thing. I think the main obstruction would be the size of the cargo gates and the size of the cargo hold.

Just imagine a Titan deploying to a battlefield as a well thought out investment, deploying a relatively vulnerable support ship/cradle down into secured territory for a deployment probably lasting weeks or months. It's not a quick-reaction force that can intervene on a moment's notice but rather a well contemplated show of force, or a necessary risk when there are enemy Titans on the loose. A Titan would not be deployed lightly as it's one fo the most valuable assests the Imperium has.

If you want a good flavour on Titans, get yourself a copy of Titanicus by Dan Abnett, he does a GREAT job with them.

rbass98 said:

Sounds like a great idea! Would be interesting to see the final version if you plan on writing it up.

If you want to have some more diplomacy involved (instead of fighting) I guess you could have the titan worshippers be a neutral tribe of feral men rather than chaos cultists. That gives the marines an option to deal with them in other ways than combat. One could complicate this situation further by having the Magos being convinced that the feral tribe are cultists when in reality they are not. Maybe the tribe has even been able to communicate with the great titan and are therefore prime material for either space marine induction or skiitari troops for the AdMech.

I think this is a FANTASTIC idea for a game. Really love the idea.

I have some ideas for you to make it more "Fluffy"...

Space Marines have no business trying to pilot a Titan. It takes a very special mind to contend with the Machine Spirit of a Titan, and even then, they can not do so forever. Space Marines, however, can DEFEND a Titan...

As you stated, you wanted to use a Warlord Titan for your game. This is perfect, as there are access passages in the legs of a Warlord Titan that are wide enough for a single Terminator clad warrior to move along. These passages are actually guarded by defensive turrets, with hardwired Servitors as targeters.

Now, as you stated, the Titan has been dormant on the world for so long, that it is burried in a swamp. This would mean that the crew, AS WELL AS THE SERVITORS, would be long dead.

The only thing is, you would have to think of a reason for the Warlord to fall. The reason has to be enough to lay the Titan low, but not so critical that the Titan can not rise again. Perhaps, the Titan was assaulted by a group of Chaos Space Marines in Terminator armor. The Traitors were able to breach the Titan's defenses, and kill the crew. However, not having the ability or time to do anything else, the Traitors left the Titan to the elements...

(Of course, ANY enemy could assault the Titan in this way. They set a trap, and were able to kill the crew of the Titan without doing anything else...)

Thousands of years after the Titan's fall, an Explorator (or whatever) finds the Titan in the Swamp. Now, the Mechanicus sees the Titan as the embodiment of the Omnisiah. They would devote everything they had in order to recover a lost Titan. However, because the Tyranids are attacking the planet, the Mechanicus can not get to the Titan in the normal manner. It is determined that a small team should be dispatched to see if the engine is even capable of being saved. It has been thousands of years afterall. Also, a small force would have a better chance of avoiding the Tyranids, as well as not drawing so much attention that the Swarm is lead to the engine.

So, the Killteam is tasked with escorting a Warlord crew to this lost engine. This gives you a fun story going in, as the Killteam has to protect the Princepts and Moderati while they go look for the lost icon. The Mechanicus would send along an escort of Skitarii, or even some Secutors as guardians.

This is OK, as you can use them as story devices. A massive Horde is attacking the group? Let the Skitarii die, so that the team can move on. Now, you have a race against the clock, with the sacrifice of NPC's as a means to buy the group more time...

Once the Killteam reach the Titan, you can go with either the natives or Chaos Cultists worshipping the downed engine. It makes no difference. This is because, the Chaos Cultists could not "infect" the Titan's AI unless they had "Scrap Code"...daemonic code that invades a Machine Spirit. However, it is your story, so you can do what is best for the group.

Now, the Titan is found to be salvageable, but it is going to take time. Several hours in the LEAST, to get the reactors up and running, the Machine Spirit out of dormancy, and all kinds of other stuff. This is just more reason to use the NPC's and Killteam in a battle against time.

Once the Titan is up and running, the engine has to move to a better location for extraction. This is because the Tyranids are too close for orbital operations. This is the fun part, as the Killteam has to defend the Titan from Tyranid attacks coming through the legs. Remember, the Servitor assisted guns are down. The Titan is helpless without the Killteam.

After a long "run and gun" adventure, the engine is able to make it to a zone, but there is a problem...a Tyranid organism has come into low orbit, and is threatening the Titan's recovery. You can use this as a "After all we've been through, we have to deal with THIS?" moment. This is when the Killteam gets a very special show...the Mechanicus will send in one of their own ships to combat the Tyranid monster. How cool would it be to watch a space battle occuring in low orbit...you could even have the Mechanicus ship sacrifice itself for the Titan.

Against the odds, the engine is able to board a specially modified lifter, and the Titan, crew, and Killteam all return to a VERY thankful Mechanicus...

One HELL of a memorable adventure...

rbass98 said:

If you have a tech marine on the team, he needs to be asked to help with getting the titan up and running. Even a Tech marine will get all giddy in the pants to be able to work on one, even if in a limited fashion.

Also even though a full sized hive ship is a no go, there is no reason why a recently spawned immature hive ship wouldnt be fair game, and would still be epic as heck, as well as significantly hurt the 'nids.

Steve-O said:

'Low Orbit' in present day terms is defined as 80-160 miles above sea level. Easily within range of an emperor class titans Plasma Annihalator which (according to the fluff for the Ordinatus machines) is a variant of the Nova Cannon and quite capable of firing a shot that far. Plus the titan also mounts an orbital defence laser as standard so it probably has all the targetting computers onboard anyway. I think the issue with an emperor class firing into orbit is how far up its arm mounts can traverse.

The thing is, do you want that starship blowing up/crashing near the planet? Perhaps its heading is bringing it closer to the titan, I might be worried about a collision as it falls out of the sky.

Wargamer said:

what is the source of that information about Titans?

I realise it may well be considered Heresy to make mention of Ian Watson's novel Space Marine. But within said book 5 Imperial Fists Scouts kill and eat the brains of a Titan crew and then pilot the Titan, turning the tide of a battle. Obviously it wasn't a perfect plan, because they were not trained crew they managed to overload weapon systems and eventually end up overloading the main reactor as well, destroying the Titan.

But I'm just saying... don't rule it out of your game because a few people on the Internet cry foul at marines piloting titans (in their view of the 'fluff'). If you want it to happen, go for it.

DW Space Marine said:

I'm wondering if that hasn't been retconned, since the minimum length of that would be about 5 km long and it requires a vast energy output. Basically it'd have to be a lunar class on wheels.

Great replies! Thanks to all. @ CaptainLoken great fluff ideas! I will use them in my upcoming mission. I also liked the idea of having the worshipers not be chaos cultists, but simple natives. Thus thowing a little diplomacy into the mission.

My original intent was to have the lost Titan expedition be a optional secondary mission. The kill team's original primary mission was to find the Magos and team and extract them before the Nid Swarm consumed the planet. When the players finally meet up with the Magos and team, the Magos will plead with the players to assist him with his expedition. So the players would have to make a pretty hard decision, follow mission protocol and ignore the Magos request escorting him and his team to the extraction point at a nearby star port (By force if necessary, but hopefully not, could be another oportunity for diplomacy). Or, help the Magos with his expedition thus increasing the difficulty of the overall mission, but gaining higher XP rewards, renown, and maybe even the Peer ( Adeptus Mechanicus) trait. As the Kill Team has an Ultramarine and a Tech Marine (Black Templar) in the group this should make for some pretty interesting inter squad role playing mid mission. I suspect the kill team's squad leader selection for this mission will greatly influence the outcome.

Ultimately, if the team chooses not to help the Magos I have an alternative epic last stand at the space port planned (similar to the one described in Oblivion's Edge) while the team waits for transports to arrive for extraction.

DW Space Marine said:

Original Ordinatus fluff, WD191

theres some fluff in the horus heresy images book about the traitor titan legions shooting down a mobile space port/ fortress which was then crashed by the crew into the hordes of chaos attacking the imperial palace. tbh if you want to shoot something in orbit youve got 2 choices:

1) if its on geo-sycninouse orbit its a sitting duck but it saw you as you came over the horizon and your arse is glass long after youve worked out that you can hit it but need to be pretty much under it to have the range.

2) if its doing a std orbit it will be travelleling at thousands of miles per minuet at the slowest and k miles per second at average. you are the easy target and they get several passes before you realise they are capable of doing so.

titans were built to be humanoid in look as well as function so they have close combat weapons and range weapons, traverse and pitch/yaw of any weapon isnt an issue just a nice cinematic as the titan raises the gun past the view port and you then see the tremendous report of the gun in its firing sequence. if you can put a titan sized chain fist into the head of another titan youve got to be able to move and be balanced while doing so.

according to the origanal titanicus tt game you could even orbital drop titans but you only had a 75% chance of it surviving the landing as it was unpowerd and relyed on the disposable heat sheild (like on the shuttle) still being in good working order for it to act like a glider wing to deploy the titan on the ground..................

titan recovery......... bulk landers decribed as flying cathererals of ommanassiah to land and deploy titans and to act as their recovery/repair stations in the battle zone each only carrying 1 emperor OR 2 warlord OR 3 reaver Or 4 warhound titans. not to be classed as a speady thing to set up or pack away.

but i do like the idea of recovery in the face of nids and the serious amounts of last minuet 'wheres my spanner' and 'i thought you had turned on the reactor start up sequence......'