There are an awful lot of condescending Stormwind Fallacies being committed in this thread. Having a specialized or "optimized" character does not prevent role playing. In this case it makes perfect sense for a techmarine to obsess about overcoming the weaknesses of the flesh. And if it usually didn't - well, that could be an interesting RP hook as well.

My two cents: As Charmander already said, the tank in a PnP RPG is usually the dude with a big two handed sword and a mastercraft suit of platemail. You want a DW tank? Make a Devastator or Assault marine with terminator honors. Have your tech-marine buddy craft/restore a suit of Termie armor to mastercraft quality or whatever, and make either an assault cannon or a thunder hammer your Signature Wargear, there's your tank. Pick all the talents that give damage or to hit bonuses for your weapon of choice, then make sure that when the fighting starts, you are FIRST in line or being the biggest nuisance. That's your "aggro" for GM controlled NPCs. Adversaries in a PnP game are written with the assumption that they will be used by a reasonably competent GM or one who at least can learn how to put together a good fight quickly, your enemies are not bound by brainless MMO programming and will ignore you if you're only armed with the chapter banner while the rest of your crew is packing Heavy Bolters, Plasma Cannons, relic swords of pwnage, and Bolters loaded with specialized ammo.

Edit: Welcome to Warhammer 40k Role-Playing Scoates. Here, even a Adept/Seneschal/Sage can be good in combat. =P

Iku Rex said:

Thank you.

Iku Rex said: Published on 10/21/2010 - 13:26:58

There are an awful lot of condescending Stormwind Fallacies being committed in this thread. Having a specialized or "optimized" character does not prevent role playing. In this case it makes perfect sense for a techmarine to obsess about overcoming the weaknesses of the flesh. And if it usually didn't - well, that could be an interesting RP hook as well.

I agree with you it could be an interresting RP hook indeed, the quest of the perfect human-machine. Beginning as a standard techmarine and then make your journey toward your holly goal.

Exploration, discovery and negociations all the way. Step by step becoming the most perfect avatar of the Omnisia. Yes that is a good idea for a developping character. But your not talking about creating a "tank" class, but a campaign lasting quest. With that I agree.

Out of topic, if I sound condescending please forgive me it was not my intent. English isn't my mother tongue and I try as good as I can to express my opinion but sometime words, expressions and sentence construction are missing to me to tell what I want to. I do my best.

I would imagine that a good tactic would be to get the whole kill team protected at the same time. The librarian power `force dome` allows an AP value at double his Psy rating (so 8 extra points to everyone in the dome) added to the already considerable toughness values of Marines and power armor, that will get everyone a protection value of 24 to 26 AP.

Add to that the Squad defensive stance of the dark Angels which will allow 4 more AP points, now the running average is 28 to 30

Then, get a techmarine to get everyone to `Dig in` so that, on top of all the bonuses, they have doubly tough cover.

Based on this, a cluster of marines, surrounded by a dome, in cover, and standing stoic like a Dark Angel, can probably blast away at a hive swarm all day and not need to come up for air.

I'm sorry but outside the MMOs the concept of "Tank" is only ever plausible when you put it into medieval technology of sword and shield. With closed formation melees between similarly armed opponents it is actually plausible AND realistic to have the biggest and bravest fellows forming a shield-wall in front to protect the others who poke behind them with a pike or shoot arrows into enemy ranks.

With stuff like Land Raiders, boltguns, missile launchers and waves after wave of 'nids or orks the "Tank" concept is unrealistic, makes little sense and is, above all, not tied to 40K fluff in any way. The closest of "fluffy" tank you get is a company/chapter champion with power sword and combat shield acting as captains bodyguard in melee.

Iku Rex said:

From that angle yes, but the OP has not really stated whether or not he was tackling this from an RP perspective. From a pure mechanics standpoint however... the OP should have listened to that nagging little voice that said he shouldn't be doing it. It's a good intellectual exercise, but ultimately impractical. 40k has guns the way D&D has swords and blunt objects and the taunt mechanic in 4th edition... that never sat particularly well with me. Insults, like diplomatic pleas, should be best role-played.

Polaria said:

But aren't Terminators close to the 'tank' concept? Or special characters? Admittedly in 40k you're one lucky (or unlucky) dice roll from having your progenoid harvested, but there are plenty of 'uber tough' examples out there. I don't see it as that different from a fantasy/medieval setting, as even in that setting you can get stepped on, run over, shot in the face...

The biggest issue I see with a "tank" in Pen and Paper is that there is no way to easily convince any thinking enemy that you're the one they should be shooting- even if you can stand up to the lascannon. You need to do something to get their attention. The easiest way I see of doing that is causing some sort of havok, be it creating a force dome, raining missles down on their heads, or standing in the middle of them punching them to death.

I think the best way to be the "tank" on a team of tanks, is to think in terms of Squad Mode. If I were building the tank I would make selections based on what "tank-like" abilities my character would bring to the table when acting as the team leader in Squad Mode. I would look at Oaths, Talents, and Cohession and how my character could help make the unit into a "tank" when the entire team is forced to go on the defensive. In my thinking the kill-team is first and foremost a Team. Everyone is on the defensive, or no one is on the defensive.

I think a tank can still be role played nicely think of a huge space wolf marine big beefy and hard drinking overly friendly type played like a D & D barbarian? some chapters dont fit the idea as well some do, look at the classic tank characters from action movies ? with good role playing a tank can be fun it all depends on the skill of the player

RenoDM said:

I don't fully agree. I was thinking that a limitation might be that a kill-team could only employ one Attack Pattern and one Defensive Stance concurrently. Alas, that is not the case in RAW. But I could see one part focussing on absorbing the enemy's punch while another part is springing an immediate counter-offense. That would be cool.

Alex

Hardrainfalling said:

I agree with that concept, but that D&D Barbarian is the one storming out into the thick of battle and dealing massive damage to the enemy. There are no instant aggro powers in DW, which means you have to do something to entice the GM's enemies to attack you so you can do the proper soaking of damage. That class I think can be made, and can be a lot of fun ( especially if he's made Fellowship his dump stat and then he tries to talk in all social situations )

Though as pointed out by others, an additional wrinkle in DW, being a futuristic game, is that running out to aggro the enemy can get you very dead very quickly when the enemy heavy weapon team aims that lascannon at your face.

Charmander said:

I agree with your assessment that it CAN be fun from an RP perspective, just wanted to point out that being a futuristic game; that barbarian doesn't necessarily have to run out to get the aggro either. He could just point another lascannon back at the enemy.

true think of the mini gunner in predator , hes a tank , lacks social skills and carries a big gun (ol painless is waiting) I see devastator marines as the most common tank rather than assualt marines, or even BA in the new A team film he at least uses cover (yes i know the film is dreadful)

IMO, the task(of creating a tank) is fundamentally flawed, the 40k verse is full of glass cannons, all capable of massive offensive damage and easy to kill. Even titans have really bad defense. The philsophy of 40k is rapid movement and one shot kills and getting out before the enemy knows your there.

Even if you ignore this point the game mechanics, which has been set up to evoke the setting, are against the idea. Even if you have the best armour in the game (non force fields) and max toughness you will only have damage reduction-like valves of about 30. An Astartes MP Lascannon on average does 43 damage pen:10, this is a 2 shot kill for any marine I can envision and there is no healing capable of restoring that many wounds that quickly.

This ignores any larger weapon which have yet be statted of which 40k is over stocked with.

Assuming of course they are not using vortex grenades/missles which no amount of armour/toughness will help with.