Ooooh this one started a fun argument.

Things from the ground was used, so there were a ton of insane characters on board. One player then reasoned he could play Doppleganger for free to copy one of the insane characters (since it is now a 0 cost card), which he chose the ancient one Atlach Nacha (or however it is spelled... ).

He then decided to use the interpretation of the "copy of the card" that it was like having a completely new copy of the card. As if he had another Atlach in his pocket, and put it down on the table w/ a little marker on it that said Doppleganger. Why does this matter? Well he also then decided that you're not copying the state of the card, just the card. So he put it into play Ready.

It's an interesting little conundrum. For example, if he copied just a normal Exhausted character, I don't think that anybody would argue that it would have to come in Exhausted?

The other interpretation, of course, is that Dopple just became a copy of a 0 cost, 0 skill, factionless, no icon character named Atlach Nacha with no text box. I.e. it became a copy of what the original card had 'become' when it went insane.

It brings up the other idea of what happens when Dopple goes insane. When it's insane it's *definitely* just a zero cost, no toughness, blah blah blah. But when it restores? Does it go back to what it copied (i.e. it's like having a new physical copy of the other card), does it come back as just a totally worthless 0/0 card? Ohhhh the questions.

Thoughts?

(For reference: I was neither player in this game, but witnessed it happen. When they asked my opinion I couldn't really even decide what to say)

First of all, I think Doppel is forbidden from copying a Unique Character. Let me check the text:

When you play Doppelgänger from your hand, choose a non-unique character in play . X is equal to the printed cost of that character. Doppelgänger becomes an exact copy of that character while that character is in play. If that character leaves play, return Doppelgänger to your hand.

Yup, so it looks like he could never legally target Atlach-Nacha for the Doppel to copy.

Beyond that though, the other questions are good ones. I would assume (as I think most would) that the card would come into play in a normal ready state...I don't know why Doppel, copying an Exhausted Undercover Security, for example, would have to be put into play Exhausted as well. BUT..that brings up a great question...when you copy an Insane Character....do you make your Doppel insane as well ? (and technically, you make a huge / great point...because when a character is Insane, they don't have any cost ...as you mentioned. Meaning you COULD play Doppel without even needing Yog Resources (see our other ongoing debate on this in General Discussion - jury's still out, IMHO on that aspect) ....and nobody seems to dispute that you could always use Doppel without needing Yog (or any) resources if you are copying a 0-cost card.

So the state of play (ready / exhausted / insane) of the card you are copying, and how that affects the Doppel when it hits the table is yet another issue FFG will need to explain in a FAQ // Errata for this complicated card.

Also, although you might not have this situation come up often....let's say its your Ops Phase....you opponent has a Demon Lover in play which, when exhausted, reduces the skill of a chosen character by -2 until the end of the current phase.

You play a Seeker of Mystery (or whatever) as your first Action of the Ops phase. Now it passes to your opponent to see if he wants to do an action. He does...he activates the Demon Lover, targeting the Seeker, and reduces her skill by -2 (to a minimum of 0)...so she becomes Skill-0. Now it's your turn to play another action (still in the Ops Phase). You play a Doppel, targeting the Seeker of Mystery ..... what happens now ?

Doppel says it becomes an "exact copy" of the card...but is that an exact copy of the cards "normal" / "unaltered" wording/stats/state ? If so, you get a "normal and unimpaired" Seeker copy. If EXACT is taken to mean EXACT-EXACT ....then some would perhaps seriously argue that the copied Seeker should also have 0-Skill, since that's the current state of the "original" Seeker at the time you are playing the Doppel !! ??

I just have to chuckle (in a good-natured way) though at Hybrid and others who seemed to say, "Oh, this card is easy and I knew right away how to play it".....

Yeah that's a good point about the Unique being non copyable. I suppose I could have answered them *really* easily if I thought about that aspect of it hehe.

I am leaning more and more towards the idea that you treat it as if you happened to have another copy of the card sitting around and you put that in play (with the extra little addendum that it goes back to the hand if the original copy goes away). If you take that approach (which seems thematically to be along with the intention at least) it removes so many of the other issues.

The skill issue you bring up goes away. The dopple going insane issue goes away. All that.

Of course, "for the sake of simplicity" doesn't make it right.

I believe the the state of the card is independent of the card. So DG can copy the "card" - namely the cost, title, abilities, icons... but will not copy the state.

Of course an insane card is not the same as the restored card. I'm thinking if you chose an insane character to copy, you would treat is as a sane card and copy the printed abilities.

But what do I know? DG is a can of worms indeed!

I believe the the state of the card is independent of the card. So DG can copy the "card" - namely the cost, title, abilities, icons... but will not copy the state.

Of course an insane card is not the same as the restored card. I'm thinking if you chose an insane character to copy, you would treat is as a sane card and copy the printed abilities.

But what do I know? DG is a can of worms indeed!

See, I'm generally inclined to agree as well, with both of you....but as we all noted, it's not entirely clear, and I can see many opponents quite rightly saying, "but Doppel says it becomes an EXACT copy of the card....why would they use the word "exact" if they didn't mean, 'the same in every respect', which would include its current state - either Ready // Exhausted // or Insane ?".

This is why I think many of us on the Forum believe this card needs some rapid attention from FFG in the form of Errata/FAQ entry to explain exactly how they expect it to work in all possible situations (or as many as could reasonably be encountered/thought of in the current card climate).

Sooooo it also says "exact copy of character". Not card. That is, unfortunately, very relevant I believe.

FYI, I tried submitting the question through the support page but it kept crashing. I'll try again tomorrow.

Oooh... that's right - it doesn't copy the card, it copies the character. So i guess we could ask the opposite question to see if it sheds light. If DG copies a ready character, and that character goes insane, does DG lose all of its stats?

My guess would be "no" - DG keeps the stats it copied when played. If that is right, then by extension playing DG on an insane character would create a zero skill, zero icon character. And when the source becomes sane it wouldn't matter because DG had already imprinted the card.

Oh, and good luck with support. I've yet to get an answer from them on anything, although one question did wind up in the FAQ even though I never received an email response (not even an automated acknowledgement)

Insane characters may be targeted by any effect that targets a character, but any part of the effect that would modify the card’s basic statistics is ignored.

Does insane and cost-0 actually change the printed cost of the card? Dopple reads: "X is equal to the printed cost of that character."

Hmmm....good point Dam....it does indeed say "Printed Icons"....I guess, even when we "consider" the cost of the Insane character to "become" 0 ....it actually still has a legitimate "Printed" Cost on it....

I would have to say that you would NOT be able to throw down Doppel for 0-cost, targeting an Insane character, based on that, unless the character was already a 0-cost (like Servant from out of Time or Beings of Ib).

HOWEVER...this doesn't dispute the basic question of...can Doppel copy an Insane character....PERIOD....and if yes (seems like it should be Yes, no question, as even when they are Insane, the characters are still "in play" - meaning Valid Doppel Target)....... what happens when the Insane character restores ?

In other words....some will argue that the Doppel, when used to copy an Insane person, will become a 0-cost, 0-icon, 0-text, etc - card (like the FAQ says all Insane characters should be treated as).....and those people will further say that the Doppel can NEVER get any higher stats, even when the card he copied has come back from insanity....

Others will say, when you copy the card - it's, as Kallisti said, supposed to be treated "as if you actually had a copy of that card in your deck and you were playing it normally" - meaning you would put the card into play "Ready", like most characters.....and that you can ignore the current "state" of the card you are copying (meaning you don't have to worry if the card you are copying is Exhausted or Insane).

If you support this second "way to play it" - then it would solve issues of modified character stats....as in my Demon Lover example earlier.. Just to recap, assume you had a Seeker of Mysteries with Skill-1, normally. Your opponent plays a Demon Lover (Exhaust to choose a character and reduce its Skill by -2 until the end of the phase). On your turn you play some support location (or whatever) - and it's your opponents chance to do an Action. He uses the Demon Lover to target your Seeker, reducing her to the minimum of Skill-0, until the end of your Ops Phase.

You then (wanting the Seeker Cost-reduction for big things-effect for a future big card in your hand), play one of your Doppels, targeting your own Seeker of Mystery. What happens then ? If you take the "Exact Copy" - concept, then the Doppel would be exactly like the Seeker at the moment he was played...meaning he'd have Skill-0, just like her. In theory, when the phase ends, and she goes back to normal Skill-1, the Doppel would be stuck at Skill-0, and not be able to adjust its Skill, since it was never actually targeted by the Demon Lover (only the original was).

If you subscribe to the "no, it just becomes a normal copy of the card, as if you'd had one of them in your hand and were playing it naturally" - opinion, then this issue (Demon Lover and related things) would again not be a problem, as you would believe that regardless of the state of the card you are targeting, at the time you target it, your Doppel will always be treated as a "perfect" copy - and not suffer any effects the given target has on it at the time.

-

This whole discussion is clear as mud, however , as there can (it seems to me) quite easily be two different / yet plausible "ways to play it" - in this case.

Dam said:

I have to admit, I'm almost expecting FFG to try updating the FAQ for this one, look at all the scenarios, and just be like "ummm..... Doppleganger is banned".

Some very good questions are being posed here.

In fairness, I only claimed to believe that a Yog resource match was necessary when paying above 0 for Dopple.

I never suggested that I could explain every possible game interaction for it.

Right?

Rosh87 said:

Yes - I concede that your comments were limited (I think) to that one area/aspect - I might have taken a bit of humorous liberty there, Hybrid - in the interests of a minor chuckle.

I am just surprised how, almost on a daily basis, we have all come up with issue after potential issue with ONE single Character....it makes you wonder if FFG "knew" this was going to be as big an issue when they created the (admittedly GOOD and "cool") concept of the card ?

I hope-hope-almost think it's 100% has-to-be - that this card gets a nice multi-paragraph section of the new FAQ when it's finished - because we (Forum) have come up with ....what...about 5-6 specific questions // scenarios - where there needs to be some clarity in order to play the card "correctly" !

Indeed some clarification will be necessary.

I don't think it will need to be too involved (multi-paragraphs? ).

Sometimes a little goes a long way. I dig the love that Yog has gotten

recently. If M.U. weren't so pigeon-holed as a faction we could see them rise

in the ranks as well. Let's hope that day is coming.

The major questions with Doppel that I am curious about are:

1.) Explain the actual process by which Doppel comes into play. Is it in your hand....dropped from your hand...transforms to the selected card it is copying while it is "in the air" (literal example to illustrate point)....then hits the table and its effects from entering play, etc. trigger as though you'd played an original copy of the copied card. If taken this way, then Deep One Rising and other "comes into play // enters play" effects would be able to trigger upon having Doppel copy them.

OR.....is it "pay cost for Doppel to be played, and targeted character for copying. Card comes out....is laid down on table....now.....moments after it's "in play" - it assumes the qualities of the copied card. If you do it this way, then it cannot get the "Destroy target creature" effect from a DoR or similiar cards - to trigger because it is already in play (seconds before)....THEN it copies the targeted card.

Obviously I lean (and most do as well) to the first way of playing it ...but there are some who might contend the second. Minor clarification would be handy from FFG // FAQ writers.

2.) Explain if the Doppel actually - at any point - is considered to have ANY Printed Icons at all.... or if it always "checks" it's printed icons - against the original Doppel card. This is very important, since if they rule it only "copies" the Icons of the card it is ...copying.....and it actually always has ZERO "Printed Icons" - then it becomes 100% immune to a card like Scotophobia, potentially Eye of the Deep, and several others which affect or remove "Printed Icons" (specifically). I can't imagine they intended this single card to be immune to something that even Cthulhu and Yog-Sothoth can't be "immune from" (Scotophobia).....but, again, clarification is needed from FFG as to what exactly they had in mind with this particular aspect of the Doppel card.

3.) Explain if the Doppel actually copies JUST the "Character" they target for "copying" ....or if they also copy the "state" the character is in at the time. This is probably the most important aspect. If you have a simple Demon Lover in play (Hastur creature, exhausts to reduce skill of targeted character).....and after your refresh phase....when you play some other support card / etc - your opponent plays a Low Blow card to Exhaust that Demon Lover (before you are able to activate it's ability).....THEN you go and play a Doppel on the exhausted Demon Lover....does your Doppel-Demon Lover-Copy get to be placed into play nice and "Ready"....or must it mirror the "exact state" of the card he is copying at that moment ? (meaning he would have to come in exhausted, just like the "original" Demon Lover already is)

This is probably the most important thing they can clarify....it has even stronger ramifications when you consider Insane characters. Sure you have to pay the "printed cost" of them to copy...and not the 0-Cost default value they have while insane....but do you actually get the Doppel to come into play "ready" or must it be turned over and become "Insane" too ... if it targets an already-insane character for its Copy effect, when it comes into play ?

Again, this is substantial enough - and with valid points on both sides, I think, that FFG should hopefully clarify this as well.

4.) Related to 4 ....not just State of Being, in terms of Ready - Exhaust - Insane.....but when Doppel says "an exact copy" - of the targeted card....does this apply to said cards "Default State" - or "its current state modified by card effects, etc". An easy example would be during your Ops phase....and assuming your opponent has a Demon Lover on their side of the table. You have a Seeker of Mysteries in play (1-cost, 1-Arcane, 1-Skill). You play a Support Card on Seeker (say, Tcho-Tcho Talisman or some other 1-coster). Action passes to your opponent. They exhaust the Demon Lover to reduce the Seeker's Skill value to 0, until the end of the Ops Phase.

Now you want to play your Doppel, copying the Seeker... this spawns two questions. The first is probably more basic....but does the Doppel-Seeker get to have the extra Terror Icons from Tcho-Tcho, since these icons now "technically appear" on the original Seeker....and Doppel's text does say "an exact copy" in terms of how thoroughly it copies the target ... ?

If not (which I lean strongly to)....then you still have the issue of ...in what state does your newly-copied Seeker come into play ? Is the Doppel-Copy made to have Skill-0 as well, just the same that the original Seeker you targeted to copy was at - at that time- due to the Demon Lover card exhausting to reduce it's skill ? If yes...then just because the original Seeker returns to normal skill value after the Ops Phase....what about the Doppel-Copy card ? He was never actually targeted by Demon Lover's effect....so why would he (ever ?) get to return his Skill to any normal value after that phase is over ?

It opens up several questionable scenarios, potentially, and hopefully FFG can answer and clarify them soon !

How I play the Doppel:

1) Doppelganger have an passive effect when he is played from your hand. It's not an effect like "After Doppelganger enters play he copies a Character". He copies a character before he enters play. So all effect triggered after the card enters play will trigger. When you play a Doppel, it's like you play the original character from your hand.

2) An "exact copy" means you could physically put the copied card at the place of the Doppelganger. If I copied a Student Archaeolgist, I have no more a Doppelganger in play I have a Student Archaeolgist with a printed icon I, a printed skill 2, a subtype Investigator and a Response effect (I could remove the Doppel card from game and put a Student Archeologist instead of). The card becomes a Doppelganger again only when the Student Archaeologist leaves play (and so the Doppel return in my hand).

3) Because you play the Doppelganger, he enters play ready (like the other characters you play from your hand). He enters exhaust if you have 70 steps in play for example . If I copy an Insane character I will say he also enters play ready (and not insane) (again you play the Doppelganger from you hand, like you play all your characters). An easy way to counter this problem should make an errata : Doppelganger cannot copy an insane character.

4) here, no problems. You copy a character, not the card attached to the character, you don't copy the attached tcho-tcho talisman. Again, an exact copy is the same thing to have the copied card physically in play. This card is a new (and so different) character in play and he is not impacted by an effect on the copied character.

Rosh87 said:

This seems pretty clear to me. Printed icons are what is physically printed on the card. This isn't the first guy who can copy icons. Does no one remember Paul LeMond from the core set? Paul is immune to all cards that reference his printed icons as are any character that gains icons from attachments or other card effects. It's not a new concept...

True...but Paul doesn't have wording saying "becomes an exact copy" - of a given card....merely that he copies the Icons. I agree that he (Paul) would be effectively immune to things that remove "Printed Icons" ....but the Doppel's a unique card in the history of CoC - LCG (and maybe even CCG ?)....so having FFG clarify a few of these issues so it's 100% clear how they expect you to play with him is not an unrealistic hope/expectation.

So, after almost a year it's about time for a little thread necromancy!

After all this time I'm still not sure what happens if you try to copy an insane character with the Doppelgänger!

The FAQ answers the question what happens with the Doppelgänger after it becomes insane but not what happens when copying an insane character:

1) Does it become an exact copy of the insane character, except it's ready?

2) Or does it become an exact copy but is also insane?

3) Or does it become an exact copy of a character having 0 skill, 0 cost, no icons, no subtypes, no text box, and no faction?

4) Something else?

Doppleganer doesn't care what 'state' the target it is. It enters play as a printed copy of the target.

Which means you pay the full cost, has all of its effects, itcons, skill, etc.. It enters play as a ready copy of the character.

Being insane may affect the card's stats, but doesn't mess with its "printed" stuff.

Magnus Arcanis said:

You're usually right, but I get benefit from working out the details. So if I argue counter, will you please help me find my errors?

From the FAQ on Insane: Although it still counts as a character under your control, it is always treated as having 0 skill, 0 cost, no icons, no subtypes, no text box, and no faction regardless of any effects in play.

Doppelganger becomes a printed copy of a character, but not a copy of the printed character. So why would it not become a printed copy of a 0 skill, 0 cost, etc. character?

If it copied the printed version of the card, you could copy an insane Guardian Pillar (in the rare event that Guardian Pillar went insane while committed to a story), right?

Harumph. Now I think about Damon's ruling regarding printed skill for insane characters. There is no printed cost on an insane character, so you can't copy an insane character even if you wanted to.

Here's the wording from Damon's response:

It asks for a printed skill on all cards in play to be compared to 1 or lower, and if it finds that the cards is destroyed. There simply is no printed skill for the card to find. There is nothing printed on an insane card at all, which includes title and card type. Those last two are determined by the game rules, that the card has the same name as it does when it is "sane" (in the face up restored state) and that it is a character card (even if the face-down card type says otherwise). This same method is what determines that the cost and skill of the card are 0, because the rules say they are. The face-down text/skill/cost etc. is not ever referred to when checking a card interaction unless the other card specifically says to do so for an insane card.

If the Statue's ability had left out the word "printed" then it would destroy insane characters, but since it says printed that is all it looks for, and insane characters have nothing printed on them to compare. It is the same logical process that allows a card to look for a card with Skill 1 or lower to be destroyed, but a character with a printed skill of 0 with a boost of +2 safe. The effect is only looking at what the overall skill is, it does not care what is printed. Y'ha-nthlei Statue on cares about what the printed skill is, it doesn't care about what its overall skill is.

TheProfessor said:

I heavily argued this in the other thread you mentioned the statue. From the FAQ under insanity:

An insane character’s skill, text box, cost,
and icons cannot be modified. Although
it still counts as a character under your
control, it is always treated as having 0
skill, 0 cost, no icons, no subtypes, no
text box, and no faction, regardless of
any effects in play.

Insane characters still have printed stuff. Its treated as 0/blank/etc... while insane, but it still printed. When you copy via doppleganer, you copy its printed values/stats/icons/text/etc...

In regards to the statue, characters with a printed skill of 1 or lower should be destroyed regardless of wether its insane or not. Characters of a higher printed skill would continue to remain obvioulsy, but weenies should die.

For Damon to be right, the FAQ would have to read, "...it is always treated as having a printed skill and cost of 0, no printed icons, no printed subtypes, no printed textbox, and no printed faction, regardless of any effects in play." Otherwise, I firmly believe he is slightly off on this one.

So you pay the cost, you gets its effects, etc... just as if it where a face up character.