Hey guys. I may have noted this before, but I sure love being a part of this forum, and being able to discuss some of the more varied rules, strategies, etc. - which stem from this dynamic game ! I also enjoy the access to all the great minds (past players and newer ones, such as myself, alike !)....and hearing the various opinions from all involved in our debates.

Ahem.....okay, sentimental moment aside, I wanted to separate this aspect of the Doppel character discussion from the "power implications and uses" thread I started earlier, because I think this deserves its own discussion, and might be fairly back and forth in terms of how people interpret it.

Basically, I mentioned in my earlier thread, that looking over Doppel's text, it may be yet another card (of which there are a surprising number in this game), which does not require a resource match to be played !

Doppel Text: When you play Doppelgänger from your hand, choose a non-unique character in play. X is equal to the printed cost of that character. Doppelgänger becomes an exact copy of that character while that character is in play. If that character leaves play, return Doppelgänger to your hand.

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The listed cost of Doppel is X. X becomes whatever the listed cost of a character is, that you select to copy as you lay down the Doppel card. Here's the catch, as I see it... Since Doppel automatically becomes whatever card you select, and clearly is not meant to require you to have a Resource Match to that card (else you would not be able to use it to copy other opponents characters, unless they were ones you happened to have faction/resources for in your own deck).... one has to wonder, do you even need Yog Resources to play the card ?

I would almost consider Doppel to be like a "Neutral Card" - that has the Yog Faction when it is in your Hand, or your Discard pile...or your Deck (out of play zones) ....or if it's used to copy an existing Yog character in play. Beyond that though, I am leaning towards believing that this card does not need you to have any actual Yog-Sothoth resources to play it. Marius commented that I might be on to something, rules-wise, in the other thread.

But what are your thoughts, everyone ?

*Example of my thinking- Opponent has a 2-Cost Undercover Security in play...normally a 2-cost Steadfast Agency Card. You have Doppel in your hand. When you pay 2 to make Doppel copy the USec....clearly you don't need to have 2-Agency resources on your side of the table ....so would you even need to have 2 Yog resources ? He's becoming an Agency card....based on the value you paid (2) for him..... but why would you need to pay 2-YOG-resources to actually put him down ? Looking at his basic X-value/cost ....it doesn't seem like you would. No ?

My take on this is that the costs are evaluated paid at the time of playing it. It then becomes the copy of the card, and any of the responses to entering play and all that then trigger. At the time of playing the card, you'd need to resource match to Yog (providing the cost is greater than 0). It's passive effect then kicks in from it being played and it becomes a copy of the card.

X is set by the cost of the card you're replicating, but it isn't a copy until the card has entered play, it's a Yog card until then.

(FYI: This probably belongs better under the Rules forum than General Discussion. I only make this point so that the next time a request for FAQ questions comes around it's easier to find)

My interpretation is the same as KallistiBRC, you will need a Yog resource match

if X =s greater than 0. I hope that DG proves to be a strong card but I doubt it will be

as strong as some assume. I also agree, why do so many rules discussions get posted

within the 'General Discussion' thread and not the 'Rules Discussion' thread?

I posted it here because I'm not directly asking a "Rules Question". I'm not saying...."how do you play this" - so much as "This card could be interpreted to be played a few different ways - let's DISCUSS (General DISCUSSION) them together".

It's kind of mixed and, as you noted, COULD probably be put into the Rules section as well, but I just picked this one (somewhat random choice based on my thinking / reason for creating the thread).

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As to the actual subject.... I agree that it's a Yog-Sothoth card while it's in the Out of Play Zones of your hand, your discard pile, or while under a Domain as a resource ....but the moment it comes into play...it becomes something else (whatever you copied).... I don't think it's 100% clear why you would need a Yog resource to play the card, if you are copying a 2-cost Agency Undercover Security, for example.

We all seem to agree that if the card you are copying is a 0-Coster, like Servant From Out of Time or Beings of Ib, that you would definitely NOT need a resource match then, right ? (Because the card would be treated like Snow Graves - a famous Shub card that can be used in all factions' decks given its 0-cost)

But the Doppel card does not actually address (in its basic text at least) - how it is to be treated when considering several special features of cards, which it might be copying. An obvious example is the "Steadfast" feature of the Undercover Security, mentioned above. I don't think any of us thinks you would be required to have 2-Agency resources sitting in your Domains to be able to actually copy an Undercover Security with your Doppel, do you ? How about if the character card is Loyal ? - like Obsessive Insomniac (Miskatonic)....if you argue that the Doppel is always being played by "Yog-Sothoth" resources (in order to be played at all) - then how is he copying a Loyal Miska card ? - or do you all think he even can ?

My perspective is - and admittedly I'm not saying I feel this 100%, but that's the point of having it here for General Discussion - that the card is designed such that it ignores several basic "Cost Mechanisms" as relates to characters. Specifically, that it bypasses the need to meet the requirements for Steadfast, and Loyal, when choosing a character to copy..... but if you are willing to agree with that....why would you not conclude that it also bypasses the need for a resource match (Yog) when being played ?

* Clearly this card HAS to be put into the next FAQ, with a 2-paragraph (or whatever is needed) section of text devoted to explaining Exactly how FFG wants him to be played *

Rosh87 said:

Well, if it's not written i nthe card, gotta follow the rules.

Kallisti did explain it perfectly.

You're playing (and thus paying) a Yog card. It's passive effect's kicks in when it hit the table.

So you need one Yog adequate ressource ... In your example, you're not paying an Undercover Security, nay ??

So, you're paying a doppleganger which becomes an Undercover security. No need to have the steadfast requirement for the Unerdcover security. This is pure and simple.

Loyal is exactly the same : It's a requirement that is considered while paying. You don't pay a Loyal card, you pay for a Doppleganger which becames the character that is loyal !

Adding those kind of stuffs in the rules or FAQ would'nt worth it, IMO (and only IMO !! ^^)

But would you agree - Prodigee - that using a Doppel to copy 0-Cost characters like Servant From Out of Time and Beings of Ib - would NOT - require you to have a Yog resource match ? (see, exceptions like this - plus some of the rules for when Doppel effects trigger - like copying a Deep One Rising, etc would be helpful to have in the FAQ - since the card is one of the more complex they have released in recent months)

To play a 0 cost card you don't need to have a resource match.

To play a card with a cost upper than 0, you need a resource match. Doppelganger is a Yog card, you need to have a yog ressource match to play the Doppelganger.

I pretty much agree - in the end - after some consideration, because it would also take away the "specialness" of this card if you could toss it in any deck.... though, there could still be times you might want to copy a 0-cost card (Beings of Ib or Servant out of Time), so being able to do so at no cost is a nice option.

Question though - do you guys think that if you copied a Servant Out of Time....with the Doppel...that you WOULD or WOULD NOT have to sacrifice a resource (again) ?

Rosh87 said:

So you think he becomes a Servant Out of Time "as he's falling through the air from your hand and has not yet hit the table" (Dramatic example given)....as opposed to the idea that "he falls out of the air as a Doppel...hits the table as a Doppel....than (already in play) he instantly transforms into whatever card you targeted" ?

I like the first interpretation too...as it allows him to copy a Deep One Rising, and have the Forced Response go off to destroy things.....the second way would not allow those kinds of abilities to trigger, making him much weaker - but would protect you from things like Servant Out of Times resource-sacking thing..

All in all, I would agree it seems they "want" you to play it the first way - so he can copy other cards "comes into play" effects too.

I think that for the Servant Out of Time, you do not trigger the froced response wich is "After Servant Out of Time enter play" because he do not enter play. I know it's tricky but it should be play like that.

but I'm sure you do not trigger the forced response for the Deep-One rising wich is : "After you play" because you dont' play a Depp-One rising but a DoppelGanger.

Most other posters here and at BGG seem to disagree with you though - (note that I once thought as you did too - that it would NOT trigger such things) - but the others say that the Doppel is only a Doppel for a few moments / seconds / whatever, and then immediately becomes what you are copying as it "falls from your hand to the table" - in other words...it is only really a Doppel card while it is in your hand, or in your discard pile. Any place else that it is....it is "in play" ...and is "something else" (whatever you copied).... so when you say "I will copy Deep One Rising" ...you are "EFFECTIVELY" playing an actual Deep One Rising card from your hand - paying 4-cost, etc.

At least, that's how most others seem to interpret it...