So i am new to this game, but i read through the book on magic and really liked the fluf on the fire mages, so I decided to play one.

He was one of the biggest dissapointments I have had in role playing in a long time.

The fact that I had to roll dice to channel every round on top of roll dice to actually cast my spell actually seemed to mean that I had two chances to fail. And On top of that Fire mages use recless stance. I liked the idea of being a recless caster, but as it turned out I just rolled more banes and didn't really get more successes. More banes when you are casting and channeling is not a good thing.

Now I have to say that I did read the rules ahead of time I did have a semblance of an idea that these problems would arise, I expected to that magic (especially in the warhammer world) would be harsh.

My real problem came when I saw how my character stacked up next to my friends character. He built a guide who was okay with his bow. He bought a few extra actions like rapid fire and a couple more. He was far from focused on archery. But his bow did almost as much damage as my fire ball. i even spent three rounds gathering power and cast a what I expected to be a giant fireball at a horde of ungors. I have to say I was very underwelmed by the effects.

To sum up. It seems to cost a lot to be a wizzard, but you don't really get any return on your investment.

Was I doing something wrong?

Have other players had the same experience?

Or is it one of those things where low level wizards suck but then they are over powered latter in the game?

<sigh> This has been discussed before.

Keep in mind that you are an apprentice, or (if you reach rank 2), a novice wizard. You haven't achieved the point where you can cast the awesomesauce of spells.

The fact that I had to roll dice to channel every round on top of roll dice to actually cast my spell actually seemed to mean that I had two chances to fail.

No, only one chance to fail the spell. One chance to fail to gain enough power to cast it a second time right away. You'll normally gain 1 point of power per turn, and channeling (which is actually faairly easy) will gain more. Also, remember you start combats with your WP in power to start, so most spells (Petty or Rank 1) are available to cast the first round without channeling.

I liked the idea of being a recless caster, but as it turned out I just rolled more banes and didn't really get more successes. More banes when you are casting and channeling is not a good thing.

Reckless has a few advantages. You get more power when channeling. Some of the spells (damage-dealing spells especially) are slightly more powerful on the reckless side. Red dice also have chances for 2x successes per. To offest, they increase the chances for banes and add fatigue/stress chances. As stated, Reckless is high-risk/high-reward. So, this seems pretty appropraite.

To sum up. It seems to cost a lot to be a wizzard, but you don't really get any return on your investment.
Was I doing something wrong?

Think of your rank1 apprentice wizard like a level 1 or level 2 wizard in D&D. You've got a lot of versatility, but your damage spells just won't be on par overall to a fighter with sword or a ranger with a bow. You can heal wounds, light fires, hit multiple enemies, and more ... all with your mind and no need for equipment. That archer won't do much without his bow, or if he runs out of ammo, and that fighter won't do nearly as well without his sword, etc. Add in the fact that wizards garner a healthy measure of fear and/or respect just for what they represent as a RP-incentive.

Only once you start hitting Rank 3 and rank 4 will wizard spells start becoming the awe-inspiring cataclysms that you think of. Until then, don't expect your role as a wizard to be the greatest damage dealer in the party. You can be decent, but you've got a lot more going for you than pure damage.

So, your "fault" is thinking that a low-rank wizard is a damage dealer. They aren't at all, even a Bright wizard, in the early ranks. They are an excellent RP/social character, with lots of useful non-combat abilities, while also having the potential to remain (with minimal effort) decent combat PCs too.

>Hrathen said: Was I doing something wrong? Have other players had the same experience? Or is it one of those things where low level wizards suck but then they >are over powered latter in the game?

Bright wizard is the most played type in the game, right ahead of Grey wizards, but I believe this is your anthem:

Be sure that on character creation you balance out your character with a lot of skills (it's the one thing you want to max out at creation because of the freebies). This will help you round out your character better too. WFRP's scenarios tend to have a lot of non-combat stuff where your character will truly shine until he levels up to mindless-combat-only status along with the mindless-combat-only trollslayer

jh

dvang said:

This is 100% true and I couldn't have written a better response myself.

Also, don't forget, you can take all those glorious combat cards as well. They are not career limited. So if you want to deal as much damage as a guy with a sword or bow, you can, then shoot a blast to finish off the enemy for flavor. Back in the old-school days of Warhammer, Wizards were battle-beasts and great wizards. This system allows you to do both and be those types of characters as well.

So, if you did stat-build for combat focused on swords or bows, you would have the same lethal power as everyone else + healing + throwing fireballs + higher level spells + great RP + the kitchen sink, LOL!

Relax, chill, and have a great time off the type of character you wanted to play. And if combat is "not fun" for you unless you're dealing a lot of damage, start picking up some weapon action cards, maybe a spot in Weapon Skill and go to town.

Remember, this is warhammer, not DND, so you have waaaaay more options, just think outside the box (then reach into it for whatever action cards you need).

understand that low level characters are supposed to be pretty weak, but the non-wizard characters just felt much more effective. I'll mention again that the archer did almost as much damage with his long bow as I did with my fireball, and he could shoot it every turn (actually he shot it twice many turns).

If I want to cast a spell on any given turn I will likely have to channel the power to do it and then cast the spell. If I fail either of these rolls, then what I wanted to do that round essentually fails (or doesn't happen).

I only ever compared my admitedly 1st level apprentace to other first level characters.

We also had a surgeon in our party. Sure he couldn't fight well, but he at least was good at healing.

I felt like my character wasn't good at the only thing that he could do.

Actually, fire mages are the most powerful combat character in the game.

Hrathen said:

Hrathen said:

Well amigo. It sucks that you didn't have a good experience, but while folks here might tell you to be patient, and put some hard work in (which PS works great) - I'm going to tell you that you can kick fair ass now, you just have to be a little careful about it.

Reckless has a higher hit-to-miss ratio as your basic blue stance die. The upshot is that most of the hits have multiple hits (Hammer+Hammer, or Hammer+Boon), and the downside is that some of the 'empty' spots on blues are replaced with banes. Overall your chance of hitting is HIGHER on a red die, but the downside is that misses hurt. And they can hurt alot. Rolling heavy reds can mess you up in quick order, but its a gamble. Literally: "Do you feel lucky punk"? This is the classic fantasy role of 'wizard staggering after casting a spell, their energy spent" without having to use spell slots or some other excuse like mana.

If you are worried about succeeding, you may be better off channeling then casting, meaning you would only fire every successive round, but have a higher chance of connecting, and pushing through your hits. If you're thinking "but my archer friend doesn't have to do that" keep reading.

Remember to stack the deck in your favor as much as you can. Training in both channeling and spellcraft (yay yellow die!) and specializations for the free white dice, and the white die from casting rank 1 spells as your 'apprentice' card. That means that you're on average throwing 4 stat, yellow, and 2 whites on a casting check, which means you won't miss as frequently, or as badly. Oh, and you can definitely do this starting (the extra yellows and whites you gain as you level will definitely only help).

Hrathen said:

First off (as is the case with everybody here) remember to get the errata'd cards. Let me repeat that: Get the Errata'd Cards. For one you can convert your power to damage on a 1-for-1, and rapid fire (one of the most broken cards ever) was tuned back in line. Second, it all comes down to how your roleplay your character.

So. I'll provide a quick encounter narrative to demonstrate a right-off-the-bat use for a wizard from a playtest I ran.

Party was all starting as they were made for a demo game: Waywatcher, Trollslayer, Bright Mage and Barber-Surgeon. Now this is a pretty combat-broken group: bow ninja, combat ninja, spell ninja and the guy that keeps them up.

Fight starts out with a Wargor and some Ungor henchmen attacking, and a second pack coming from further down the road. The group downed the henchmen quickly, but the wargor had 9 soak to their average 10 damage. The elf rapid fired and rolled amazingly ... for a total of 3 damage on target. And got 1-shotted. The trollslayer took 2 hits, and with some help from the mage finished the monster off, but went down himself.

So the doc tells the wizard to 'buy them some time'. The apprentice casts cantrip to start some fires in the brush to the sides of the road, then casts pyrokinesis, and begins building a wall of flame keeping the beastmen at bay. The doc gets down, and uses 'splints and bandages' on the elf, to help her ignore the crit, and a draught on the slayer to get him back up. Now the beastmen are just waiting for that wall of flame to waver (when the spell ends) to jump in, being urged on by a barking and baying Gor. The party knows they can't take another batch on. So the wizard begins to channel. 3 tokens left on pyrokinesis.

Round 1: At 1 below equilibrium (3) - channels 2 power. Goes from 3 to 2 reckless.

Round 2: At (5) - channels 2 power.

Round 3: At (7) - channels 7 power (6 + boon), putting the apprentice at 14 power. But gets a chaos star - meaning all power must be gone by the end of the turn. At this point she's dripping with power, skin full copper, hair made of licking flames, sweating and gritting teeth to controll that much of the wind.

Then she casts pyroblast at the gor, putting all the channeled power into it as the pyrokintic controlled flames are coming down. Comes up 3 successes, 3 boons after challenge dice. Hits for 4 (int) + 6 (flameblast action card 3 success line) + 1 dam/1crit (2 boons) + 8 (spent power) = 19 damage - 7 (gor soak) = 12 damage = Gor Health.

In essence the mage one-shot the big beastie that had scared the bejeesus out of the party. Needless to say at this point the henchmen seeing their 'boss' screaming as his eyes melt, and his fur ignites, decide to head for the hills. The wounded party lives to fight another day.

And this... was a rank 1, no advance character, with no 5's in stats or terribad minmaxing.

Hrathen said:

Lies sirrah. You can incite passion. Sear wounds shut. Burn the living bejeezus out of enemies. And light people's pants on fire (oh yeah, that's right!).

Hrathen said:

Just being a bit unlucky, and sticking to thinking inside the box.

Hrathen said:

I almost ended up playing a bright order wizard in our campaign, and definitely got some practice in during a few playtests. I enjoyed the career immensely.

Hrathen said:

You don't suck. Get that thought out of your head. Just enjoy the copper skin, glowing tats, fiery temper, hair-turning to fire. Remember to use cantrips frequently, and get into the spirit of the Bright order. Use a few of the tips folks shared here and I'm sure you'll do fine.

Your friend may be legolas-quick, but his enemies don't die screaming in pillars of fire. Plus if he gets uppity, remember ... his underpants are flammable. Whether you act on it or not, that thought always brings a smile to my face .

What dvang said : +1.

I'll guess you have Int 4/5 at creation and WP at 4. Hard to start will less than 4/4 if you play a Wizard. WP 4 makes you start an encounter with 4 Power.

Channeling is very easy especially for a Bright Order mage (red side cards in neutral stance), even when Quickcasting since the penality Challenge applies to the Spellcraft test. You need to train at creation Spellcraft and Channeling, the skill are already acquired (unless you GM doesn't want to)

Don't forget that the Bright Order card gives you, on a successfull spell, the ability to spend extra power for extra damage : 1 for 1.

the Rank 1 "FlameBlast" owns (Success lines + Boon lines). And you can pump it up blady if you get a good Channeling roll before. You'll often "beat" a Troll Slayer-type using a Great Weapon at the "who's got the biggest" game.

Flaming Sword of Rhuin is quite potent too for only 2 Power. You easily get the +1 St. The Sword is a 5/2 with Pierce 1 (it's a very very good weapon) with a Fortune die bonus on attack checks with it. Not too shaby for a Mage.

Bright Order Mages are very powerfull combat wise in general (check Rank 3 Bolt of Aqshy and Flamestorm), but they cannot take a beating very well Would you blame them ? They are in Robes!