Good day,

Deathwatch is my first foray into the world of WH40K (not counting Space Hulk), and due to this, I am having some difficulty envisioning how this translates into a role-playing game. Don't get me wrong, the book is brilliant, the flavor is amazing, the material is rife with opportunity.

But most of the usual player hooks are dispensed with. Loot? Not really, though reknown is a way to get better gear. Money? Nope. Fame? Nope. Huge tracts of land? Nope (for either entendre). Progression? Well, yes. Absolutely.

My concern - or question - derives from the near perfection of the Space Marines themselves. It would seem that the will of the God-Emperor is the trump card to be played against any Marine who exhibits any semblance of self. Since the Space Marines have very little personal goals, and since everything else is controlled - how do you get a real role-playing flavor into a game where the characters are the perfect soldiers; driven, unquestioningly, by higher powers?

• Certainly there are tactical situations in which a characters' Chapter/Background will influence his actions, but how often will this play out in the form of role-playing?
• What does inner-party conflict look like? SM1 says attack. SM2 says defend. Commander says attack (beacuse it is the will of the emperor). SM2 capitulates. Repeat? Are there many opportunities other than this to have conflict? Sure the Black Templars dislike the Librarian in the group, and won't sit near him during chow, but will work/fight with him. Is that really conflict?
• Are all of the role-playing opportunities tied into combat and combat only? Again, perfect soldiers. Someone on here debated the idea of blackmailing a SM, and many dismissed this out of hand. I agree. But is there ANY weakness that can be used against the Space Marines.
• How do you role-play the idea of becoming Battle-brothers? This seems like a very key point to me. Many players I have known will simply min-max the concept and realize that using Squad mode gives them bigger numbers - so Squad on! But, I just can't see a newly formed kill-team working together as a crack unit. So how do you make the team "earn" it's dependence and fluidity with each other? Is this more a role-playing exercise or a rule set to say "after x missions, you get y squad mode abilities" or somesuch. Also, this seems very "binary." One day we are not brothers, and the next we are. I would like to see this be a tangible (for lack of a better word) milestone for a KT.

Again, I want to reiterate, I love this game, the material in it, and the flavor - and I am a newbie to the system and the world. I probably missed some things in my first readthrough of the galactic tome of knowledge that is the rulebook. I apologize if I missed stuff.

The tactical side of the house is outstanding, and I am looking forward to obtaining information on more foes. I could see me running a game and the folks enjoying it muchly.

My only concern is - it seems like it may devolve into Space Hulk the pen and paper version with a distinct lack of depth. As I am new to this arena, I am in earnest looking for any support/ideas you can proffer regarding potential character driven challenges and role-playing opportunities.

Thanks in advance.

CrispyRat said:

You raised very good points. In essence, the Kill Team is made "overnight", as the Squad Mode is part of the DeathWatch training process, which does involve pseudo-science technobauble "hypnotraining" etc. So they are made, not earned.

However, most military films feature the "boot camp" prominently, and why shouldn't you ? My campaign started the players off not as DW, but on a spaceship together, with one adventure on it, and then some "boot camp" scenes before a third adventure, their first as DeathWatch proper. I believe the earning of cohesion reflects the growing trust the KT has, and how they will function better....

Just a thought.

CrispyRat said:

Utterly wrong. The game is all about fame and glory. And service, or course.

CrispyRat said:

They aren't perfect. Just very good at what they have been trained in. But beyond that - mortal.

CrispyRat said:

Players have to work harder than in other rpgs. Create dynamics within themselves. A Dark Angel might win over the respect of a Space Wolf in time, etc.

CrispyRat said:

Space Marines have whatever weakness you say they have or whatever the players say they have. If you want to have a Blood Angel Marine that is a gambling-addict, that is conceivable. Just because you say so. The point isn't in trying to strictly adhere to some canon setting as closely as possible. The point is in interpreting the setting in a manner that you find entertaining.

Consider that dozens of Marine Chapters have become traitors. Maybe it did smart small - a marine starts gambling in an underhive and infects some of his brothers in time. This opens up avenues for corruption and eventually almost the entire chapter is infected.

Don't fall for the image of perfection; consider it imperial propaganda if you think another interpretation is more fun.

Alex

If you want your Kill-team to RP the building of the team, you should provide some preliminary mission to show that. Assuming the marines show up at the watch tower, get their armor painted, and immediately 'squad up' is irrational. Their first true mission is probably after some period of working together anyway.

The increase in Squad effectiveness as they work together is modeled by the Cohesion bonuses for Rank, increases in Fel, and increases in Command skill.

ak-73 said:

I was under the impression that if fame and glory is what you sought, the Deathwatch wasn't for you? While Deathwatch members may be comfortable in their duties and diligence, the rest of the galaxy moves on without (mostly) knowing their impact through service. Heck, according to the rulebook, especially important or significant engagements are attributed to others just to maintain the anonymity of the Deathwatch.

Personal glory - as in within oneself or KT? Sure.

I like the idea of "propaganda." Thanks. Makes sense on some level. The traitor legions had to begin somewhere, right?

Ariolan said:

Thanks. I like the these ideas. While it doesn't solve the role-playing mental block I have, it does give a kick-start to cohesion and eventual KT status.

CrispyRat said:

You would be incorrect to assume that these marines have no personal goals. Everyone has personal goals. Do not think that the hypno-indoctrination has somehow stunted their personalities, because it hasn't.

The Will of the God-Emperor is what keeps them fighting for the Imperium... that's it. When they yell, "For the Emperor!" it's not just literally for the Emperor, but the ideals and beliefs that he instilled in the Imperium. They might as well be yelling, "For Humanity!".

Every marine feels a personal connection with the Emperor. They aspire to be like him in all things. Despite this desire, they are still individuals with their own personalities and goals.

Also, these marines are NOT perfect soldiers. If they were perfect, the Horus Heresy would never have happened. They very much so have a human personality, even if they are not truly mortal.

You'll see the Chapter play a large role in the role-playing of said marine. What you may see play an even LARGER role would be that marines personality. Their demeanor. Keep in mind, the Demeanors in the book are just examples of demeanors... if you want a full list of possibilities, just open up any dictionary and look for adjectives. In most cases, the role-playing will be a mix of Chapter and Personal demeanors. Either one could have more emphasis.

In your example, it would be more like this:

SM1 (blood angel): Attack! Let's spill their blood in the Emperor's name!

SM2 (squad leader, space wolf): Aye, that would be swell. However, they are entrenched... by Grimnar's teeth, that would be suicide.

SM3 (dark angel): What's wrong Mengsk (space wolf squad leader)? Scared of some puny mortals and their tiny guns?

SM2: Ahhh... the silent one speaks at last. What would you propose then? Shall we dance in front of them in our tiny white robes?

SM4 (ultramarine librarian): Gentleman please, why don't we use a northernly approach to our advantage?

SM1: Bah, can't we just engage them now? If we attack now we'll take them by surprise...

SM2: Fine fine, we'll attack from the front and from the Northernly approach. Good call, Librarian.

SM3: We should be cautious, this cult is known for their suicidal use of explosives.

SM2: Noted. We'll be sure to shoot the crazy ones first.

Roleplaying opportunities tied to combat alone? Hardly.

Actually, there is plenty of "small talk" between marines if you read any of the novels written about them... just not a lot of this "small talk" happens during a mission.

I think what would have been nice to mention in the core book is WHAT marines do in their downtime. No, I'm not talking about fire drills, prayer, squad tactics, etc.

I'm talking about the Space Wolves sitting at "the pub" together, downing lots of ale, while telling stories of their past victories...

Ultramarines playing chess against each other...

Dark Angels sitting together in shadowy corners as they watch the merriment of "downtime" that other marines get, while glaring at the Space Wolves...

Blood Angels chatting about "Oh, remember whats-his-face before he lost his arm to that ork Nob?"...

Black Templars shouting at the Space Wolves, "How can you drink in a time like this when there are blasphemers to kill in the Emperor's name!?"...

Storm Wardens listening to the thrum and rumble of shelling in the distance, conversing dismayingly that, "What I wouldn't give for some rain on this **** planet..."...

See? Those are interesting ideas that could be given as examples as to what a Space Marine does when not on mission. A bulk of your roleplaying is going to be done in-mission... that much is obvious. However, being able to carry over your personal discussions from "out of mission" to help mold your Space Marines personality, and where he fits with his squad, would be a great boon for all players.

Portraying the Space Marines in the above fashion not only does credit to the many novels that have been written about them, but it also humanizes them... breathing more life into what many would consider just "mindless killing machines... where is the fun playing one of those?"

You'll find that there are many of us here who are just as passionate about this setting as you are. Running Deathwatch can be as bland or exciting as the GM makes' it out to be. Space Marine robots? Sure, if that's what you and your players want. Heroes of legend? Yep, that works also.

SpawnoChaos said:

Brilliant. Yes, I will have to pick up the novels.

You've placed your finger on the problem I was having - the humanization of the supreme humans. Interesting.

Thank you.

Let me give you just a few examples from my own group, which consists of four Marines, played by one person very familiar with the 40K world, another reasonably familiar, a third who has only played Dawn of War, and a fourth who has only read the RPG book itself (and has just started with that). These examples all come from one single session of play.

The White Consul Apothecary is selected as the team leader, as the objective is to recover valuable biological information about the Tyranids, and rescue a Magos Biologis. The player is reluctant to be the team leader, but turns this on its head, and actually has the Apothecary reluctantly agreeing to be the team leader. The Apothecary is a deeply Pious Marine, and views his calling as the protection and succor of his Battle Brothers, and not as a leader.

The Kill-Team comes upon a group of Guardsmen being attacked by hormagants and tyranid warriors. They are roughly 100 meters away. The Calculating Dark Angel opens fire on the tyranids, despite them being engaged in melee with the guardsmen. The Pious White Consul is a bit aghast, because these men are fellow servants of the Emperor, and it would be cruel to strike them down. The Dark Angel doesn't care, because they are irrelevant to the mission, and because they are all going to die anyway when the tyranids consume the planet. Plus, he rolls incredibly well and hits NO guardsmen. The White Consul, on the other hand, shoots at a tyranid warrior engaged with his battle-brother in melee, and does 2 wounds to his squad-mate. He is deeply shamed, though no one chastises him. The Blood Angel Librarian wishes to close into melee with the Tyranid Warriors, for the Renown of facing one of them in solo combat, and to take a trophy (two of the Tertiary Objectives), but instead chooses to remain with the squad and engage them from range, as he is both Gregarious (and wants to be part of the squad) and is also trying to allay any suspicions the other Marines may have about Blood Angels being unreliable berserkers in combat.

After the battle, the Guardsmen thank the Space Marines for saving them, but are downcast to learn that their planet is not to be rescued. The Dark Angel suggests that they accompany the squad, thinking (but not saying it out loud) that they could be used to attract the attention of the tyranids. The White Consul wants them to accompany the squad, so that the Marines could protect them. The Ultramarine in the group is opposed to this idea, as the guardsmen will slow down the team, and not contribute appreciably, though he is willing to rescue them once the mission is complete.

The Kill Team happens upon some convict labor, which were intended to be a diversionary combat encounter. Instead, they approach them boldly, and confused and intimidated, the convicts are willing to parley with them. The Pious White Consul offers the convicts the chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor by dying for the cause. He had thought about offering them rescue if they assisted in the search, but the gunship could not accommodate all of the convicts as well as the Guardsmen and the team. He was unwilling to try to deceive the convicts, due to his convictions.

Some of these interactions are "in or about combat", but others actually AVOIDED combats. The demeanors, Chapters, personalities, and backgrounds of the Marines drove their decisions, and their reactions. While every single marine is focused on the primary and secondary objectives, some are eager for personal renown, and others are not. We have a good amount of inter-party disagreement, without any inter-party fights breaking out. People are making decisions that reflect their demeanors, and choices that have ramifications for their characters in the future. Even though the system isn't 'open ended' (in that you have Objectives and you should be working towards them), you still have a lot of room for development and distinctiveness.

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

First thing I did was look up what a "White Consul" was. ****, I have a lot to learn. Okay, got that.

Thank you very much for the write-up. It is very helpful.

A question though. The Team Leader is the "command" link of the group. What would the Dark Angel have done if he was commanded to stop shooting by the Apothecary? How would you have handled the situation if the Dark Angel refused to obey? What are the ramifications to such insubordination?

I ask this only because you KNOW something like this is going to happen, and I am asking from both a lore standpoint and from a game flow standpoint.

CrispyRat said:

Space Marine's are quite abit about honour and glory. Read some of the better black library stuff and you'll see that they're always competeing for the greatest honour or glory amongst each other. However they don't go around gloating about it usually. Its also important to point out that most the stuff even ordinary Space Marines do isn't known about by the average citizen. For Deathwatch marines its usually about the honour of serving in the Deathwatch and many of them wear their Deathwatch shoulder plate even after returning to their Chapter.

As stated above each marine still has a personnality even if they don't concern themselves with petty mortal things. Helsreach is possibly the best of the recent BL books for showing this as it offers a variety of personnalities and interactions from amongst Grimaldus command squad itself and later interactions between the Black Templars and Salamanders (two radically different chapters).

CrispyRat said:

Yeah, I should have explained a bit on the White Consul. We have another player who is going to be running an Ultramarine, so this player decided to play a Second Founding successor Chapter of the Ultramarines. He's also Pious, and the White Consuls are one of the few Chapters which subscribes to the Imperial Creed (viewing the Emperor as actually divine). In addition, the White Consuls assisted in the cleansing of Ultramar (so his armor history and personal history make sense). They also contributed Marines to the Crusade, so their presence makes sense, and it also seems reasonable that people are well-disposed towards them. They are also a Codex Chapter, to boot!

Really, nothing would have happened. The "Leader" of a Kill-Team mission, as I understand it from the rules, isn't expected to be the "boss" of the group. Instead, he is kind of the "tie-breaker". When the group can't agree on what to do, then the Leader steps in. As I see it, the group CHOSE the leader, so everybody should have some reason for deciding on this guy to lead.

As I understand it, there's really no "insubordination" within the Kill Team. You could be insubordinant to a Watch Captain, or a Watch Commander, I suppose, but the Kill Team is a band of brothers.

Having said that, if someone was insubordinant to a Watch Captain, I suppose they might face anything from a reprimand through an Honor Duel (with the Captain, who will probably beat you senseless) to expulsion from the Deathwatch, which would bring great shame to their parent Chapter (and which might result in anything from a period in the Pain Glove to a Death Quest, or even summary execution).

Refusal to cooperate on a mission could have two effects. First, there's no reason that your Battle Brothers would trust or cooperate with you in the future. They might be ORDERED to go on future mission with you, but they could hang you out to dry on those missions (not elect you leader, not help you, not communicate with you, etc.).

More importantly, if your intransigence led to the failure of the mission (or even failure to complete important objectives), the Marine might be disciplined or even ejected from the Deathwatch. An Imperial maxim: "Victory needs no explanation. Defeat allows none." If you don't cooperate with the team, but the mission is a success, then good for you! Your Battle Brothers might let the next genestealer eat your face, but you get Renown and XP. If your willfulness was the thing that made the mission fail (according to your Battle Brothers, or according to whatever records exist), then you are probably in trouble (and might well not get any of the Renown or XP that the Kill Team could salvage out of the debacle).

Finally, if you have players who can't or won't accept the conceit of Kill-Teams being assigned Missions with Objectives which they have taken an Oath to complete, you have players who don't want to play Deathwatch. The Deathwatch doesn't just accept any old Marine off the sidewalk, and Space Marine Chapters spend a great deal of time and effort selecting, conditioning, and training ALL of their Marines. You can get Marines who turn Traitor. You can get Marines who go over to Chaos. However, if you (as a GM) have players who regularly want to go "off script" and ignore the missions and objectives, they aren't buying into the central premise of the game. Just like you can't play D&D if all of the characters want to stay home alone and write poetry, you can't play Deathwatch unless the Marines are going to try to complete Missions. There's nothing wrong with players who want more freedom of choice, but the Deathwatch "conceit" isn't going to work for them.

I also forgot another important option. If your character can't cooperate with others, maybe he gets a solo posting to a Deathwatch monitoring station. After his four year posting to an orbital listening station by himself, he can rejoin the group!

Sure this is punishing a difficult player, but it is realistic within the game. If a Marine can't or won't work with others, but is still valuable enough to keep in the Deathwatch (rather than just sending him home to his Chapter in shame), then the Watch Captain is going to find a place to utilize whatever valuable skills the Marine has, while minimizing his liabilities.

ak-73 said:

Bravo! Literature is full of folks that try to be perfect, but because they're mortal (well, in some cases the immortal as well) they fall short. It is often this imperfection, and the attempt to be the best they can that makes for some really compelling works.

CrispyRat said:

Cloten gives some good examples of what coule happen here I think- but in a sense you answered your own question from above. All of the questions and answers to those questions are full of opporunities for playing out the characters and the NPCs. How DO they deal with conflict when one person 'disobeys' the mission leader? What does the individual do?

As for the mental block trying to play a marine, I think a lot of people get it when playing marines because on the outset they are kind of generic. It's not until youlook under the covers that you can find a host of opportunity ready for the taking. Check out the Nature section on page 31 of the core book , then on through the RP section through 35. Now I do concede the "Roleplaying as a Space Marine" section is a little sparse (really, the three most important things to remember are not speaing with slang, killing EVERYTHING not just aliens, and that they retreat, not run away? really?) But the section that says "more akin to the heroes of the Trojan War and the Odyssey than to Inquisitorial Acolytes or a Rogue Trader" really hits home with me. They're not all warrior monks with no sense of humor unless you want that type of game, they're epic warrior figures with personality, personal dreams, hopes, desires, passions, hatreds, and thoughts. Is your Dark Angel pios and perfect, or does he seek piety because of personal demons that trouble him? Think about our modern society and look to the folks who try their hardes to be perfect, clean, and holy. Then ask how many make it versus how many falter, and of those who falter, how many fall right into the depths they fought so hard against?

For some inspiration about DW and SM RP look at the brothers of the snake by Dan Abnett.

You will find a lot of RP between SM and normal human, other SM and a quite good point of wiew from the Xenos menace.

Could be interresting to transformed the plot into a DW game also.

And maybe it could give some idea for a new SM chapter in the DW game.