Hi all,

In our group, our resident big-gun enthusiast is not a happy gun-bunny. At first, I was a little leary of his comments, given the potential for hideous carnage metalstorm/heavy bolter abuse can dish out, but after a chat I think he's on to something.

If you compare the Devastator and Assault Marine specialities side by side in terms of available advances, the Assault marine has far more to buy that actually directly improves his primary role. In addition, the vast majority of talents which give additional bonuses against specific targets such as hatred and alien hunter, scourge of hectics, only seem to apply in close combat.

Does anyone see an issue with extending their benefits to ranged combat?

Ranged combat is already quite powerful. The base weapons are just so much better - bolter vs. chainsword weighs pretty heavily towards the bolter in my eyes, and I think ranged combat gets plenty of good Talents. Lastly, the Devastator is the only specialty that gets such an inexpensive BS advancement rate.

Up to level 5, he is getting some pretty nasty talents for his ranged weaponry. So up to that level I don't see what the problem seems to be. After level 5 though, he got a point.

Ranged combat and, more specifically, the heavy bolter are so much better than melee combat, that it needs far fewer talents.

Ranged combat gets more situational bonuses to hit, where as melee needs additional talents for to hit (Frenzy), additional attacks (Lightning attack, Two Weapon, Blademaster, etc.). Melee weapons don't get specialty ammo to increase their damage, or attachments like motion predictors or Astartes targeters.

Several Squad powers give extra attacks with a bolter (bolter assault, fire for effect, sustained suppression), but extra melee attacks are more rare (BT chapter power and...).

For horde destruction, the Devastator should reign supreme. At Rank 4, Storm of Iron puts him on an entirely new plane, allowing him to handle full hordes on his own in 1-2 rounds. The comparable melee talent, Whirlwind Attack, is not available until Rank 8. Melee vs hordes is also extremely dangerous, due to concentrated attacks and inability to Dodge/Parry.

For non-Horde combat, the heavy bolter still does massive damage. Vs a Master/Elite, a Dev has probably ~70-80 to hit before wargear mods, giving, on average, quite a few 2d10+10 shots. The melee guy is probably rolling 2-4 attacks at 45-60 ish, for probably 1d10+13-18ish damage.

I don't see how ranged gets no love. Really, the Assault marine has more to complain about. Often enough the enemy will be obliterated by ranged fire before he can get into charge range.

Plus, the ranged combatant gets a plethora of choices even at zero Renown. He can requisition Specialty Ammo, Grenades, Flamers (several types), and Missile Launchers, as well as being able to swap between Heavy Bolter and Bolt Pistol.

For the Melee guy, your choices are Chainsword, Combat Knife, or Fists. Two Chapters can pick one other Melee option.

Ranged combat is just fine, in my opinion.

Plus, the ranged combatant can easily improve his effectiveness by boosting ONE score, Ballistic Skill, where the Melee combatant really needs to boost two, Weapon Skill and Strength. This allows the Ranged Guy to spend less points on his specialty, and lets him choose from a lot of other stuff to become more well-rounded.

Boosting Strength isn't really all that necessary for a Melee character, but it does provide another way to boost up damage.

There is the fact that the melee guy likely defends well against melee himself, while the ranged guy is no better at defending from ranged attacks than the melee guy and is likely more vulnerable to melee in return (lower WS and less likely to have a Balanced and/or high-craftsmanship melee weapon).

It makes little sense to compare the effectiveness of Heavy Bolter and Chainsword though. Of course the Heavy Bolter is more effective. It would have been silly for FFG to nerf the HB or boost the Chainsword in order to make an Assault Marine and a Devastator with a HB equally lethal.

There cannot be equal lethality of Specialties. They aren't called Specialties for no reason. The Assault Marine is better in close combat, the Devastator at ranged combat; it's their specialization.

Alex

ak-73 said:

And, at the same time, melee combat, and ranged combat fulfill separate roles. Its not purely a matter of how much damage is dealt. Melee can easily take out ranged, if they cover the distance. And ranged can use suppressing fire to enable melee to cover that distance. Melee can prevent ranged from getting charged or stuck in close combat by enemies, etc.

Once again, its not about who can pump out the highest damage values.

And on talents, ranged gets what it needs, as it is mostly concerned with dealing damage.

does the astartes targeter count as a sight? or is it an attachment to the helmet?

I don't believe it attaches to a weapon, but its not like the sights would stack, so why ask?

Assault marines having more talents to buy to really just be as effective as a devastator certainly isn't a bonus. The exp saved by a devastator could be used for other things, while the assault marine really has no choice as theirs is already spent.

Also, don't forget that shooty marines get all kinds of goodies to shop, ammo, extra kit for their guns, not to mention bigger guns! The customisation options for melee equipment is painfully lacking in it's entirety. Hence they have to make it up with talents.

KommissarK said:

as a devastator marine i've noticed that there are relatively few add-on options for my heavy bolter, she's pretty lethal is she is, but overwhelming firepower is the name of the game for me, so since i can't equip a red dot or telescopic sight to the HB, the astates targeter seems like a great option, but so does the motion predictor, which i believe counts as a sight, so if i can get my hands on what is basically all 3 then thats exactly what i plan to do

Cleric Cromwell said:

You might also look at the Diagnosticator Helmet. The bonus to Medicea might not ever come up for a devistator, but it also counts as a preysense sight, without taking up the "sight" slot on your HB. (all spellings from memory, since one of my players has my copy of the book)

thats not a terrible idea

I think that the balance between melee and ranged combat is really obvious when amos run out... Then, the devastator seems pretty useless with his... knife (even if it is a big one). It is normal that killing at long range is better and easier than killing at close range (from bows to firearms, we always tried to put some distance between us and the guy we want to kill), but when you cannot shoot anymore, your close combat weapon become your best friend.

I personally don't have these kind of problems, I play a Blood Angel Librarian. With a force sword and the smite power, it is quite balanced between close combat and "long" range killing .

well as a gun-bunny player heres my views.
The heavy bolter is powerful, team it up with customised bullets and you really don't need any other gun cept for extreme examples of tank killing.
to be honest it could do with a nerfing.
Now moving on
it appears melee has lots of options when it comes to what you do, hatreds and favoured enemies, multiple special attacks such as duel strike and overrun and a large selection of close combat weapons each with their specific specials, such as lightning claws and thunderhammers. balancing stats to meet your personal requirements of what you want from your character.
Alot of thought can be put into how you want to make your melee monkey special.
I dont see this in the devastator.
statting is self explanatory, weapon will always be a heavy bolter, unless your tank hunting. talents selection is meh.
Essentially my argument is theres not alot making them particarly interesting or special. other than you start the game with a big gun, specifically the only thing that really seperates them is unrelenting devastation, which if you didn't choose, what the hell were you thinking?
Hell in the game Im in, I'm looking forward to when I run out of ammo with the heavy bolter, least then I can try come up with creative ways to solve the groups heavy firepower needs. I'm thinking something to do with oxygen tanks.
personal suggestions I would add give some love to the devastator would be some talents related to using the other heavy weapons such as Melta and plasma, just to add a bit more flavour, I want to be a bit more torn in my weapon selection. a moral booster power would be nice as well , happiness is a belt fed weapon.

so do you see where Im going with this?

What's wrong with Cleanse and Purge? Heavy flamers are a pretty devastating weapon versus hordes, and they have a much different flavor. Eye of Vengeance would apply for the single shot heavy weapons, and Mighty Shot is pretty sweet with your full auto friend. And of course, Bolter Drill and Storm of Iron make you a Horde killing machine.

I wouldn't complain about getting your best weapon at rank 1. All those goodies you mentioned for an Assault marine are a good long ways away, unless your GM gives out Renown like candy. They are stuck with a lowly chainsword for at least a few missions. and it will be quite a few more before lightning claws and thunder hammers make an appearance.