I've got one in my group and, man... it's like he's playing a different game from everyone else. A truly epic, him-against-the-hordes one, which is sort of awesome, but it's not really what I come to WFRP for.

I think they're a little OP. Starting out with plate armour (2 def 5 soak), plus the 4-5 Toughness any self respecting dwarf warrior will start with, means most damage bounces off him, meaning minimum wounds, also meaning crits aren't likely to affect him either.

If I were going to start over again... I think I'd houserule Ironbreakers as an Advanced career. In the meantime, I'm not sure how to put together a challenging fight for this party that will challenge the Ironbreaker without overwhelming the other guys (not that they're wimps either). Anybody have an idea on how to put together something reasonable that can give these guys a run for their money?

A similar thread is in the GM section. WFRP has 4 ways to die..use them:

1. Wounds..fat chance on this cat

2. Disease

3. Insanity (it comes fast on min-maxed characters)

4. Corruption/mutation

I agree though that an Ironbreaker makes a great Intermediate/Advanced career.

jh

Remember: If the opponent hits, there's a minimum of 1 wound. So, lots of little creatures will pick him apart. It doesn't matter how tough or well armored you are - if you are hit, you take some damage.

Also, if he's completely combat focused, as most Ironbreakers will be, he's going to be weak in other areas. His stats will become distressed fairly quickly. Anything that attacks mental stats will be his bane. If he doesn't pour some points into WP, he could be in big trouble.

The point is, anything that's focused has a weakness.

He's actually not a super twinked character! Ironbreakers have Willpower and Toughness as their primaries, which means that they have a high natural immunity to stress/fatigue in addition to damage. Plus he's a dwarf of course which makes him resistant to corruption as well. Sigh! I mean I can throw stuff at him, but it's hard to throw stuff specifically at him to give his character a decent challenge without overwhelming the other characters.

Ah well, maybe the disease rules in signs of faith will give me some ideas.

The best idea might be to talk to your player. One of my players played an Ironbreaker, but when we discussed how overpowerd the Gromril was he agreed that it would be much more fun to have a more balanced group.

So, we made the Ironbreaker an advanced career (along with swordmaster) and he swiched over to soldier, and I agreed to let him have resiliance instead of ride as a career skill while beeing a soldier. We did not change any big things about him, we had played a couple of times and the biggest change for the character was the armour. And it was easy for the other PCs in my group to "forget" that he ever had a suit of Gromril and just game on.

Otherwise you just have to keep trying to hurt him. Some monsters (like beastmen i think) does criticals on their first success line. Throw that at him and let him suffer some criticals since the Gromril only protects against the first. Use enemies/actions that deals out stress/fatuige instead of damage, to make insanities more likely.

He may be tough, but I've found that even the toughest characters have issues with the 'boss' bad guys in WFRP. Minions are for keeping the other PCs busy while a Wargor peels the Ironbreaker out of his tin can.

I agree (yes to OP question) and saw the problem early on. I house ruled that Ironbreaker / Swordmaster / Wardancer / Waywatcher were Elite Career and could not be taken as starting one (like Witch Hunters). It is as much a RP issue to me as a technical one. He's a short beard with not much experience, the Ironbreaker recruiter doesn't see him yet fit for the Unit. He needs to prove himself before joining the ranks of the mighty Ironbreakers!

For the Gromril Armor, i warned my player (whom started as Soldier) that he won't have it (maybe as a quest for the Karak, etc). I will change the Career card (it's worth a Superior Full plate armor, ~200 gold crowns). It does cause balance issue in the group. I will bring in that armor at a later date, when other players will also be able to get rewarded (magic weapon/armor/items) and/or the opposition will be more of a challenge, when they all are able to soak a little more (he already soaks 9 with high defences when the 3 other are soaking 5/6 with much lesser defence options).

You can't really argue that Corruption / Stress-Fatigue / Diseases can balance this issue, because the Soldier / Ironbreaker is a high Tou and WP type with skill training and higher overall resistance to those compared to other Characters in a group (he is trained in Resilience and Discipline). He is overall much more resistant than others. Now it's a scaling issue for the opposition you (as gm) will bring one the table to challenge this character without outright overkill the others.

The Career card i was leaning toward would be the "opposite" of the Giant Slayer one (i also have a Slayer in the group) : Each time the Ironbreaker soaks damage (physical or not - i did not chose to limit it yet), his Toughness is considered 1 point higher than it is. (the Giant Slayer is a +1 damage to melee attacks)

I try to keep the group overall on par. The Slayer is a heavy hitter, the Soldier a bad ass soaker, both combat machines. The Elf Bounty Hunter and Initiate of Sigmar can fight well too and are vulnerable, but they actually do lots of other things (Investigation-type, Social, etc)

I swamped the ironbreaker in my group with 4 or 5 zombies that did alot of fatigue damage. It seems the ironbreaker doesn't do alot of damage himself and is mostly defesive but I guess it depends on the build.

hordes of skaven will also cause fatigue. Passing out in mid combat is fatal.

-L

Kill his friends. They don't have that armor.

Doc, the Weasel said:

That is the direct result of the imbalance. As i did not want it to happen "just because", i tried to avoid the problem (modifying the Career)

It did seem a little odd to me that FFG would design Special Troop Types from Warhammer Fantasy Battle into Basic career choices in WHFRP. I decided to play along with the designers and as a result I ended up with both a Wardancer and an an Iron Breaker in my current party, just the luck of the draw I guess, I've created RP obstacles that are difficult for them to handle, however when it comes to combat they are a deadly duo. I do start their party at three tension due to the fact that their group consists of two elves (one of each race) a dwarf and a Greay wizard, but I find that its hard to find legitimate excuses to raise the tension meter on them. I don't want to ruin this experience for them, cos its their first true attempt at Roleplaying , so I've decided to erretta the game for the next batch of characters we create. It only makes sense that those Special Troop Types would be Advanced careers, so that is what I'm going to do. Until then I'm creating encounters with character type villians that have ample tricks up their sleeves!

I think the real problem is how the career fits in with the armor economy. That kind of heavy armor would normally cost a ton of gold.

Normal greatswords are easily picked up at char gen, so the Greatsword of Hoeths that Swordmasters wield are not that unbalanced. There's not much a starting Sword Master or Wardancer can do that a Mercenary can't.

Hey Doc just a quick question. Do you restrict the action choices of players, effectively limiting them to matching traits? What I mean by this is: do you limit Dwarf only classes to being able to take ancestor actions, Great Swords of Hoeth to take the Way of the Sword actions, and Wardancers to take ritual dances? Cos if you do then there is a hell of alot that the Wardancer and the Great Swords of Hoeth can do that a Merc cannot. I personally Narrate this way as it fits the setting and story better, also lessening what I believe to be racial imbalance as far as scope of choice is concerned. The humans have a vast array of options were as the other races are slightly stymied in this regard.

I feel that its not within the scope and flavor of the setting to allow a Human to take one of the other races race specific abilities. Humans get a bonus in being adaptable, but no true Elf or Dwarf would ever teach a Human their most honored abilities and secrets. Anyway, this is a little off topic, I was just curious. I still think that any Special Troop Type from the table top game should be an Advance Career option.

Oh and just one other thing, the Dwarf would have a hard time selling his suit of Gromril armor as this would be considered a disgrace to his race, and no dwarf would buy it, and it provides absolutely no benefit to anybody but a dwarf Ironbreaker, unless you like being encumbered. So I believe that the economic problem is a moot one. Yes the suit is very strong, creating a veritable tank in the Ironbreaker, but this is how the breakers should be represented. They are warriors who can fight for days in full armor. Its a little OP'ed but if you play your cards right you can easily have them on the run. Just overwhelm them, eventually if there are enough Goblins in the mix, the difficulty will be too great and the Ironbreaker will be subdued. Remember to add fortune and to reduce difficulty on your Baddies attacks for things such as flanking, outnumbering, and the like.

Thats my two crowns worth and I'm sticking to it!

The Strolling Bones said:

I personally restrict based on traits, but those actions are not THAT powerful compared to other actions. My point is more an issue of usefulness rather than just options. A tweaked out Merc should be at the same level of effectiveness as the tweaked out Wardancer, regardless of his lack of Ritual Dance actions.

The Strolling Bones said:

I'm not concerned with the Dwarf selling the armor. I'm thinking more what non-iron breakers need to do to get armor even close to that level. Most characters would find getting a suit of chain a stretch. I don't mind imbalance between characters, but this one is too great.

One thing I like about this game is that it gives you a series of choices, in which the correct action is not always obvious. The current state of the Iron Breaker is such that it makes the choice of playing an IB or some other career too heavily favoring the IB. In the case of the Swordmaster, that sword is not so great that it makes me not want to play the coachman, because the coachman can still pick up something comparable if it came down to it. The IB armor is different. Passing up something like that is a poor choice that will be hard to remedy down the road.

Otherwise, I'm not too worried about killing the IB character. You are right, overwhelm with a bunch of small guys (I'm thinking nets/whips and hand crossbows, so the dwarf has to burn a fatigue to move, while being pelted by bolts).

I have a similar dwarven tank in my V2 game, full plate, T5, AP5. Total Soak 10 when an average hit does 8...

Needless to say, attackers need an Ulric's Fury to even dent the guy. That happens on average 5% of the time...

But it hasn't really been a problem... Why ? Because I don't mind having the tank killing off most bad guys in a few fell strikes. Dramatically, it doesn't really hamper me as GM. He's alone after all. He can't take control of the whole battlefield by himself. And he doesn't always wear full plate. I've had many combat intense scenes in AoM, and everyone was stressful and perilous. Why ? Because the PCs have come to depend on this tank in their tactics, so when the going was getting rough with the dwarf, their whole defense scheme was about to fail on them. The dwarf didn't get hit or damaged very often, but when he did (I'm a lucky b*stard), everyone got cold feet ! It's like infantry squads taking cover behind the tank, if the tank blows up, they're dead !

So here are my two cents about the Dwarf tank and any tank that is:

1) When knights or Shieldbreaker show up in full battle harness, any other combatant not equally competent and armoured should definitely reconsider... Fully armoured warriors are an awesome sight to behold and most militia/thugs would know better then to stand and fight ! Unless they vastly outnumber them, of course... Which brings me to..

2) If lightly armoured combatants outnumber the armoured opponents, they might stand and fight, but they will use mob tactics. Strike-to-Stun, Grapples, Sacks, Tackles... The way to do this is to have 2 or 3 combatants fighting defensively in the front and flanks while a 4th one tries to sneak behind and tackle, grapple, etc, the knight. You can trip him with a halberd, throw a large rock at him to unbalance him, throw yourself recklessly at him if he doesn't see you. Anything goes ! Once the knight is tied up, it's rugby time ! Just pile on and one free guy stabs through the visor. There. That's how they really did it in the middle ages, that's how your weak combatants should do it. The response to that is of course to make sure the weak guys can't swarm you. Which makes a very tactics intense and satisfying battle !

3) Battle worthy opponents will also wear heavy armour. Mail is a definite minimum to survive a melee. The NPCs know this. You don't attack fort Alamo with a bb gun. It's that obvious. Lightly armoured combatants are either archers or surprise attack skirmishers that will overwhelm and retreat as soon as the opposition gets organised.

4) Most city adventures present lightly armoured opponents to the PCs. That is simply because it's illegal to wear heavy armour in a city. The PCs shouldn't have theirs available either. Most of the time.

5) Most GMs start with the idea that full plate should be hard to come by, something warrior PCs should aspire to. Nonsense. Heavy armour is readily available to the right purse. If you are poor, adventures will permit you to pilfer and pillage, you can end up with poor infantryman's breastplates, mail etc... fairly easily. WFRP is Renaissance era. Many soldiers, especially veterans, had at minimum some plate protection. Italians produced it almost industrially. Battle depictions show men at arms all wearing full plate or half plate. WFRP takes it's inspiration from that. Make armour readily available to NPCs also. Knights all have full plate, elite watchmen will have full mail, Doppelsolner chain and plate... When the PCs encounter mercenary types, they should be facing armoured opponents.

6) Beastmen don't have much armour. That's fine. They are the "savages" of the Warhammer world. They are adepts of stealth, surprise raids, but they are fairly easy to cut down. They are about savage offense with no defense. Why do you think the Empire still stands when Beastmen lurk in every thicket ? They are underequipped and oblivious to consistent battle strategy. That's why they lose against a true Empire regiment.

7) Last but not least, as the PCs are often outnumbered during the course of their adventures, having a tank or two in the group is a precious GM tool to avoid TPKs. Seriously, how long would the PCs last without the dwarf tank ? If the other players are jealous because the dwarf gets all the glory, ask them why they didn't choose to play a dwarf also ? If what they like is dishing out damage and wadding into the fray, they should all play Shieldbreakers, knights and other melee types. That's all !

Doc, the Weasel said:

Well Swordmaster vs Coachmen is a moot point due to the fact that a High Elf cant even choose to be a Coachmen. But you have to remember that there are many ways to have good defenses, you just have to invest into the dodge and parry abilities. For example, I find that the Baddies have a much harder time hitting the Wardancer due to the great application of her parry and dodge active defenses. She weaves in and out of the fray dishing out murderous damage all while deftly turning aside most attempts to wound her. I know that the dwarf has this ability too, but not nearly to the extent that she does. My point is I don't find the Iron Breakers to be that over powered, just slightly.

And I would take the coachman over the Ironbreaker any day, just for flavor and challenge sake.

It is good that we are not looking for ways to kill our parties, because we should all be into the game for the same basic reason, to have fun!

The Strolling Bones said:

Of course. I like to keep my players alive. That way, when I destroy everything that they love, they will then WISH that they were dead.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Well said, Doc! well said!

As seems to be the theme of this thread its all about using the right tools. Personally I find using a "corrupted" wizard with a gold order spell or two that turns his armor into an oven around him to be very effective. Also any thing that has the chance to "ignore armor soak" is a good bet.

I recently began a campaign with a Human Zealot, Human Initiate of Sigmar, Dwarven Ironbreaker, and High Elf Swordmaster.

I did not start the Swordmaster or Ironbreaker with their "free" items, instead I plan to have them earn them during the course of the campaign.

Can anyone provide me a good idea for a small "boon" to last the first rank of play for the character? I was thinking of an extra fortune die to resilience for the Ironbreaker, rather than the armor, and an extra fortune die to strength when fighting demons for the swordmaster .

Anyone have other ideas?

Doc, the Weasel said:

Well, what you're talking about here, though, is a role playing issue. Not everyone is going to want to play an Iron Breaker because not everyone wants to take on that kind of role. A person choosing his race and class based on how much damage soak it has is perhaps coming to the game with the wrong intentions.

Keep in mind, too, that in human settlements and cities non-humans are going to have social obstacles to overcome that others will not. That armor won't do you a lick of good if the innkeep won't serve dwarves and the town guarde always suspect the non-human for crimes first.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing the issue here. He's tough. That's nice. It's not game breaking though. I've got a Bailiff character in my campaign who wears chainmail, has a shield and has decent toughness. Most henchmen who attack him do the minimum one damage. Big Bads, on the other hand, cut through his armour with ease. The same would apply to an Ironbreaker. The few extra points of soak don't make that much of a difference.

It isn't hard to create a tank character in WFRP 3 (the Bailiff wasn't even trying). But beyond a certain 'level' of toughness it doesn't really matter anymore - once mooks and general enemies are doing the minimum amount of damage then any extra soak is mostly wasted. Ironbreakers are the toughest characters in the game, but mercenaries get to throw an extra expertise dice on an attack roll once a session. Barber-surgeons get to heal more. Bounty hunters get an extra dice for most rolls targetting their quarry.... IMO those easily equal suffering a few less wounds now and then.

Hmmm. His armour is worth TWO HUNDRED gold coins. He cannot wear it in the street else he'll get arrested. He's poor, so sleeps in not-so-nice dives, perhaps even leaves his belongings there. Thats a lot of money in this setting, and as an out-of-towner that spells victim, so .... Nick it. Cut the straps on it and force him to get it repaired then 'lose' it. Burn the Inn down. Sink the barge. Arrest him and confiscate it for a while. Hell, get some dwarven bunkum artist to claim its his family heirloom and hold him up in court for a couple of weeks. Don't penalize him too badly, he'll get it back, but they all make nice plot fillers, and he will end up just a bit paranoid and appreciate his armour so much more. And, with the amount of help he'll need from his less melee orientated friends perhaps he'll get to appreciate their skills a bit more