BrotherHostower said:

Indeed, my rank 1 Storm Warden Assault specialist recently bested a Tau battlesuit commander in a 1 on 1 duel. My chainsword was regularly hitting for 30+ damage using Thunders Charge, which combined with the Wings Of Angels solo mode ability allows for a ridiculous charge of some 60 odd metres followed by a massive melee attack.

So to everyone saying Blood Angels are the 'logical' choice for an assault marine, i poo-poo your idea. They kind of suit a tactical marine better, allowing you the best of a tactical marine's specialisation but also having the ability to flip out and go hand-to-hand nearly as well as an assault specialist when angered or surrounded.

Likewise Space Wolves are NOT the barbaric savages people seem to misconstrue them as. They are actually very close to the White Scars - cold, calculating warriors who enjoy a good fight but aren't stupid enough to try rushing at heavy armour or superior firepower with nothing but their fists, knives or fangs.

Kasatka said:

Librarian. With Wings of Sanguinius and Force Sword and Blood Boil. What a sight.

Kasatka said:

They are more of a close combat chapter though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Exactly, there are plenty of good ideas for Blood Angels other than assault marines.

ak-73 said:

Aye, but tactical, librarian, apothecary, even techmarine are all universal classes good at a mix of combat styles. It's only Devastator = ranged, Assault = melee as the niches.

ak-73 said:

Really, they're not that much more of a 'close combat chapter' than anyone else - Space Marines are naturally proficient at and inclined towards melee and close assault because it's in those situations where the strength and resilience of a Space Marine are most advantageous (massive strength and tough armour are less beneficial when you're being shelled by heavy artillery and are stuck in a trench kilometres from your target, but they're extremely useful when you're a metre from your enemy and they can only bring a combat knife to bear against you). Space Marines are naturally deadly up-close, and even those carrying powerful heavy weapons aren't exactly feeble in melee.

The Blood Angels have a psychological inclination towards this, a barely-suppressed fury that is more useful in melee than at long range... but they're still Space Marines, with everything that entails. The Space Wolves go through that young, fierce, headstrong phase as Blood Claws, but become disciplined, versatile warriors with age and experience... Grey Hunters being essentially Tactical Marines, with the same kind of flexible approach to combat, using bolter fire or combat blades as the situation requires.

Beyond that, the only real inclination to melee is their inclination towards "honourable combat" and grand heroics, but looking at the officers of other Marine chapters, the Space Wolves are hardly alone in that.

Space Wolves, particularly as the current Codex and their write-up in Deathwatch depict them, strike me as very much the boisterous hero - loud, proud, enthusiastic, joyous in victory and scornful of danger, treating battle as an adventure... an easy example would be the depiction of

and they like to go to battle with very big axe and more and more and more melee weapons....

the only change i think it's good is to provide in their chpater advance... the conter attack!

Gantz the slaughterer said:

Most very big melee weapons tend to be unwieldy (making it impossible to parry with them) so for anyone using such weapons counter attack wohld be rather useless.

no way...look here....

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=cat440177a&aId=2600001a

these are the wolf

At the high end, relic blades are 2 handed power weapons and do not have the unweildy trait.

Given that existance, any GM could allow regular 2 handed great weapons to have the unweildy property removed if the weapon was of the very best quality/rarity.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I have to say I disagree. Deathwatch Core Rulebook, page 49: "However, far from being uncontrolled berserkers, the Space Wolves simply relish the thirll of close combat above all else."

Even if we disregard the many description of the Space Wolves being ferocious and aggressive (which could refer to them being that in general, whereas to me it is clear that it hints at their close combat preference), I have to ask you if you think that the advances and bonuses given reflects that? I think it does not.

I think they wanted to avoid "just another close combat chapter". And I think that's a mistake. If you want to have the big chapters in, represent them properly. If you want more game balance, leave one of the close combat chapters out. Raven Guard would have been a suitable substitute (Black Templars could have been included in RoB).

SonofRuss' retooling of the SWs does a better job than FFG's version, I think. You probably going to see a lot of DW players house ruling more close combat into the Space Wolves. If that is being the case, FFG should take that as indication that they have gone wrong. Just as with Righteous Fury - most people turn their back on this broken rule in DW quickly.

Alex

fan of Space Wolf.....

why we don't ask an errata to fantasy fligth????

if i correctly undestood.....we are billion of deluded fan.......

Gantz the slaughterer said:

Pardon my french, but le screw tabletop GW products... this isn't a roleplay of the models and their moneymaking, this is a roleplay of the FICTION and the SETTING... and their moneymaking

If you want all the Blood Angel talent then surely the most intelligent thing to do is play a blood angel instead of asking the GM or FF to change the rules so you can play a Blood Angel in Space Wolf armour.

I personally like how the Space Wolves are portrayed and if you want to get fluffy, the only Space Wolves who get Jump Packs and are close combat based 100% is the Blood Claws, the young pups of the army, while impossible, it is unlikly a Blood Claw will be sent off to join the Deathwatch, When the Blood Claws have grown up they become Grey Hunters which are a more balanced fighting force while still remaining very up close and personal. I would argue that Space Wolves are more likly to be tactical or devastor (Grey Hunters and Long Fangs respectivily) than any of the other careers.

yes, this is a play of fiction......

but why all the marine are the same at level 1???

in the space wolf chapter you first become an assault marine, then a tactical marine and at last a devastator......

so, a tactical marine or grey hunter was of skill and talent from assault and tactical......

in other chapter are not the same process....so it's auspicably more diversity from chapter to chapter...

i don't know really well the blood angel chapter background....but a grey hunter is a good tactical manrine plus also a good assault marine in the same person, and this is why the space wolf are usually armed with "requiem and axe".....

i think the error was to try to use the same char sheet for all at the beginning.....

Gantz the slaughterer said:

The real difficulty with this type of method is making the different chapters balance out. How would you make a blood angel devestator and a space wolf devastator balance out? The point of the system as it stands is to allow a person to choose their favourite chapter without being too penalized.

I dont see the need to balance characters in a rpg I have played rpgs for 25 years and every system has classes better than others I have never known it put players off, I have a space wolf palyer in the party i run hes been a fan of space wolfves for 20 years total nerd over there fluff and is happy with the rules and he has an assualt marine , death is joy armour and choses not to use his jet back because he rolled wolf tamer as background he took wrangling skill , he doesnt feel the need to have skills of other chapters nor is bothered one bit that others in the party can do more damage, he will play his marine as loud , proud and very space wolf

Hardrainfalling said:

You dont care about such kind of balance, your players do not, i do not, my players either. Few pages of answers in this thread touched the issue. However there seems to be a very vocal group of players, who absolutely can not stand such differences and imbalances in their RPGs, its personal preference of playstyle, as simple as that.

ak-73 said:

But I've got a BT army and want to play my favorite chapter

I don't but that's what they were worried about, I don't think it's a coincidence that all the chapters with their own codex got a look in.

But still, they could have included a couple of skills that made it a bit more flexible but didn't immediately make them a melee only chapter, like a solo mode ability would (at least for people worried about that, which it seems is a lot).

Still I don't like just giving them counters attack, 1 it's not at all the same ability as described in the TT codex, 2 it's not all ferocious, 3 it limits what weapons the player has. In my mind, two weapon weilder melee, berserk charge and maybe fercious assault work better.

reading after reading i continue to agree to add only the counter attack

and perhaps the fearless or combat sense (but I'm not really convinced of this)....but no more......

why?

i look at the squad mode ability....

my wolf prefer ever to choose the furious charge!!!! and with the tooth and nails........this if you want give the SW the correct look you feel....and also better define the if he his a wild youth or a long fang or ever

if you look also the solo mode....with his sharp sense...a wolf is very dangeorous.....

I'm waiting in hard cover, and when I smell the chaos foe I'll go out and kill by surprise....mi sense are better than an auspex!!!!!

I like also to specialize in tarcking and stalk my prey with my brother!!!!

From my point of view, Space Wolfs embody the scandinavian warrior tradition. And peoples really found of this tradition know that "Norden Menschen" (man from the north) were found of stories and tales. Scalds (scandinavian bards) were very respected and the way a story is told is by far more important than the story in itself.

In the 13th warrior you have a good example of what was this culture. *spoil for those who haven't see the film* At the end, when the leader of the band explain that he is dying far from his land and without anymore proof of him being a king, he ask Antonio Banderas to write his story, because even a simple man can become a king if his story is told. The emphasis on storytelling in the Space Wolf chapter is typical from this culture.

I love the 13th warrior and yes its very space wolf in fact the norse attiude to the arab character would be like a space wolfs attitude to a human (I love the scene where the arab cuts the huge norse sword down so he can wield it and the leader says that "typical give him a sword and he makes a knife "

the book is also good written by Michael Critchton of Jurassica park fame although actually a rewrite of beowolf

A friend and I were talking about this topic yesterday when something occured to me that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread. Space Wolves get access to Hardy, and for really cheap too, as one of their Chapter Advances. Up until then I was totally in agreement that Space Wolves got the shaft, but after noticing that, I'm not so sure anymore. Particularly when Assault Marines are being discussed, since they don't get it for some strange reason. Or at least I thought that was strange before, now I think it's an intentional design balance. Space Wolves getting Hardy is a big advantage that the other close assaulters don't have. As an Apothecary player... let me tell you, always counting as Lightly Wounded makes a BIG difference in how quickly you'll bounce back after each fight. After 3 big fights, the others will be falling off thier curve becuase they are ending up with more and more wounds. That means getting knocked out of each fight a bit faster and getting into critical wounds more often, which pile on even more penalties.

Single fight, yeah, I'll take one of the others. But for any series fight, and campaign taking more than a day, give me the Space Wolf.

One small problem with that being that just like everything else on the Space Wolf Advances, Hardy is on the General Advance Scheme. And this is what causes the Space Wolves to be "shafted", the fact that there is nothing they can do that another chapter can't, and usually better more oft than not.

What the Wolves need is something that is not on the General Advances and is unique to them, like all the other chapters get. Unfortunately, Fantasy Flight decided to give everything melee related to the Blood Angels and the Wolves were left with nothing to make them any good at anything combat related.

While I agree that Space Wolves should have gotten something more unique, I disagree that it should be close combat related. Blood Claws are the young Space Wolves, a grizzled veteran is more likely to be a Long Fang.

I'm sure as they expand more books they will add more details to all the chapters. Space Wolves being the furthest from the Codex standard are harder to fit into the standard packages. Of course, being one of the more popular chapters they didn't want to leave them out of the main book.

What makes you think that only the Long Fangs get seconded? It could just as easily be a Wolf Guard, Lone Wolf, or Gray Hunter; All of whom have a close combat focus. Besides even the Long Fangs are deployed with a chainsword and bolt pistol, the reason being that they enjoy a good brawl as much as any other member of that chapter. And when you think about it, the Long Fangs would be even better at melee simply due to the breadth of their experience.

Daisuke said:

True. But the Space Wolves can get it at rank 1 for 400 exp, while everyone else have to wait until rank 5 and pay 1000 exp.

But I do agree that they are a bit shafted RAW-wise. I'm a huge Space Wolves fan and have been since I first came in contact with 40k in the Rogue Trader days. They were MY marines! With names and a background I could relate with. I'm from Sweden and my father told me and my brothers the old norse sagas (Beowulf, the aesir gods, the giants...) instead of the more "traditional" bedtime stories.

Anyway... I give the Space Wolves Combat Sense in their advancement scheme for 500 and call it a day. It gives them an edge in close combat early on. And I give them the Paranoia talent (not that they are paranoid and twitchy though) effects together with the Heightened Senses (Smell) trait. Even if they're not activelly searching for a certain smell, they'll unconsciously notice it.

Other that this, I do like how FFG designed them.