It's been a long time since I've seen a space wolf army, but I don't remember ever facing a space wolf assault squad. Just a bunch of guys with heavy weapons.

That said, I plan on playing an assault marine from a chapter that doesn't have special rules (raptor legion). I can say I had plenty of things I wanted to spend my points on in the standard assault marine list. Also, as far as balance is concerned it seems like if you aren't a devestator marine you've already decided to gimp yourself. In a game of full-auto bursts, close combat is really only for people who really want it.

deinol said:

Close combat has its reasons for existing.

"As you fire upon the termagants in the distance, a massive horde of hormagaunts are flooding out from the sewers just meters away from your squad, and are charging you!"

At this point, a squad of all devastators is proper screwed.

I find it odd that a Blood Angle has six (6) melee combat talents that the melee class, Assault Marine, either does not have access to, or has access to at later levels.

Looking at the melee talents Blood Angles have access to I find them all to be interesting, useful, and desirable.

Space Wolves get crap comparatively.

As aforementioned I would need to spend 1,500+ XP more than a Blood Angel to be on equal terms.

This does not excite me, nor does it reward character concept.

I think it would have been less stinging if the XP difference was not so large, and if the melee talents were all included in the melee class, Assault Marine, progression charts.

This isn't DH anymore, 1500xp is nothing.

1,500+ XP is three, or more, sessions.

KommissarK said:

Or the just beat the hormagaunts with their fist. More realistically they quick draw their bolt pistol and blast away, since they'll have good BS anyway.

I know, a couple genestealers popping from the sewers would be a bit more of a threat, but the reality is a lot of fights are going to be ranged.

Don't get me wrong, I love playing the assault marine. But playing through Final Sanction I'd spend most of my time jumping to the enemy only to have them gunned down by the HB before I got there.

deinol said:

Assault the leader while the Dev takes care of the rank and file. That way you'll get to take the bosses head. Or he'll take yours.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Turns out the HB with its 27% chance of righteous fury is pretty good at killing the boss too.

deinol said:

That's one of the reasons that I changed Righteous Fury for both my current campaigns (RF deals a 1d5 critical, rather than ever-expanding damage). I'm also looking at altering Swift Attack and Lightning Attack, and I've been pondering a stack of new Chapter-specific talents that grant additional Solo Mode abilities to characters - things like the Saga options that Space Wolves characters get in tabletop, and the Black Templars Vows from their Codex (in both cases, one talent grants many options, one of which is declared when the group takes their Oath - so a Space Wolves character would declare their heroic intent at the start of the mission and get a specific Solo ability and personal objective for that mission's duration).

deinol said:

You're missing the point: the Devastator can't shoot at the Horde and the boss at the same time, especially when the boss is amidst the horde (remember independent characters joining squads?). As we have established, a Dev with HB is probably much better at eliminating hordes. He should be. But while he's doing that, it might be smart to have the Assault Marine jump-charge the boss before he can unleash on the kill-team. Of course, if the boss is a Demon Prince, it might be smart to request Orbital Bombardment instead.

I don't understand the controversy. In another rpg you probably wouldn't have heard a complaint about a sword not being as powerful as a heavy machinegun.

The sword only comes to life in the hands of a sword-master, even then it won't be as effective in killing a large amount of people in a short time. A full auto burst from a HMG will also tear a single target to shreds. But a skilled sword-master can tear a target to shreds too.

I fail to see the problem.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I recommend that this idea should find its way into Rites of Battle (not referring to your RF mechanic though). RoB should also detail more a few specific chapter/specialty combinations, such as the rune priest. Half a page to full page per special combination.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I'm going to use the DH Righteous Fury rules, which are the same as the WFRP 1E/2E rules it was based on: each die can explode on 10s to a new single d10, not an entire new damage roll. I was hoping they "new" rules were just a misprint in Rogue Trader, especially since Final Sancition had the DH rules, but DW has the RT rules and the RT FAQ hasn't changed it, so I'm house ruling it back to sane levels anyway.

Although strangely enough the Volatile weapon trait refers to a single d10 like the Dark Heresy rules. I love this game, but I wish FFG would double their editorial staff.

ak-73 said:

Oh, I don't really have a problem with my assault marine being specialized and only really coming into play in particular circumstances. My real point was minor differences between different chapter's assault marines aren't as big of a deal as the difference between ranged and melee in the game. It's the tactical marine I feel sorry for. Why bother with a boltgun when you can be a devestator for full-auto glory?

deinol said:

If you really want to blow up hordes as a Tac marine, bring a Missile launcher. Load up on Frags with a few Kraks as needed. Yes, you miss out on the +1d5 the Dev would get, but you still take out 10 Mag for every missile (Blast(8) + X + Devastating(1)). Hook up an Astartes Targeter and you're good to go.

Radomo said:

Your solution to Tac marines being underpowered compared to devestators is to tell them to lug around a heavy weapon and pretend to be a devestator?

deinol said:

Not been my experience in Final Sanction. Sure the Dev did more damage. But Tacs are leaders who can shoot and who don't have any really expensive characteristic advance scheme.

One of my players has an Ultramarins Tyrannid War Veteran Tactical with Lead From The Front Power Armour. Great character all the way.

Devs are the shooters and damage dealers, Assault Marines are the close combat specialists who will often end up fighting enemy elite (and possibly master) xenos. Tacticals are leaders and/or all-rounders who can shoot (Bolt Mastery + Special Ammo = Sternguard). Librarians can do things that others can't (divination, mind-control, etc) and can deal high damage. Techmarines can be tanks, absorbing plenty of damage. But I haven't taken a too close look at them yet. Apothecaries have an important duty but I feel they haven't been given enough to make them special. Their abilities are a bit more spread out, less focussed on a particular area.

Alex

In most Chapters, marines start out as Scouts and don't even get to wear Power Armour until they've gotten some experience under their belts. Not so the Space Wolves. Their inductees start out as Blood Claws, the equivalent of other Chapter's Assault Squads. They lack discipline and often need a Rune Priest or other senior leader with them to keep them in check. They're out to prove themselves worthy and often attack with ferocity, but just aren't as good as other Space Wolves stat-wise). Eventually, if they survive, they mature enough to become Grey Hunters (Tactical Sq). Meanwhile, Wolf Scouts are elite Veterans and Long Fangs (Devestators) are some of the most senior members. So in a sense, I could make a case for it being highly unlikely for a Blood Claw to even be seconded to the Deathwatch. That's not to say that you can't play the rare individual that shined brightly enough as a Blood Claw to earn the honor, but you can't expect a relatively new Space Wolf to be nearly as good at being an Assault Marine as a Blood Angel, a Chapter that emphasizes close combat fighting to the extent that they have Veteran Assault Squads. A more mature Space Wolf would probably view being asked to take on the role of Assault Marine as beneath him.

Bladehate said:

One may also note that SW has chapter advances useful for much more specialisations.

• Acrobatics is good for most specialisations, no problems there.
• Assasin Strike isn't good for Devs and only really useful for Assault Marines and Librarians.
• Battle rage is useful for anyone using frenzy, frenzy isn't.
• Berserk charge is really nice for those specialisations that wants to charge the opponent rather then shoot until it gets close and then switch, aka only Assault Marine, others gain a small bonus from it.
• Flesh Render is pretty much **** as it only works with the weaker weapons anyways (useless with those that roll more then one D10),
• Furious Assault is dangerous to use but useful (and very useful for a librarian with Iron Hand) for those specialities that are good in melee,
• Frenzy is bad for everything except an Assault Marine (and a librarian provided you buy Mental Rage as well),
• Hatred Orks is useful for all I quess.
• Slayer of daemons is cool but very specific and still only good for melee specialities,
• Talented trade artistan, fluffy addition that probably won't find too much use.
• Talented Pilot Personal is only for Assault Marines and for rank 3 marines who feel it is worth it.

Space Wolfs then.

• Carouse I'm not sure on, on one hand this is a combat oriented game, on the other hand consume alcohol is the only skill that has been used in all my WFRP campaigns (combat hasn't been used in all). Carouse should find it's social uses however.
• Performer, cheap and social skill.
• Tracking, useful skill for mostly anyone.
• Wrangling, a little bit too specialised but for 100 per degree it's worth it.
• Hardy is again useful for all specialisations, not the best talent but not the most expensive either.
• Hatred chaos space marines is technically more useful then hatred orks as there are rules for chaos space marines in the book but not for orks but it is just a little bit silly to think like that. Both are equal.
• Heightened senses taste can be useful but it depends on the GM and how you are allowed to use it. If it is allowed to work togheter with the Omophagea it is great. Useful for any specialisation.
• Talented Carouse isn't worth it, by the time you will consider buying it you have carouse +20 which togheter with the space marine organs makes you able to breathe beer.
• Talented Tracking is useful for any specialisation.
• Wisdom of the Ancients is expensive but great and useful for anyone no matter what you play. Also note that it is fully rules legal to use Wisdom of the Ancients to ask the GM the following "Are you trying to kill uss?" and have him being forced to answer as helpfully as possible.

Space Wolves has less specialised chapter advances working for any specialisation. If I would play a Bloodangel Devastator I would find many useless advances, if I would play a Spacewolf dev I wouldn't

I find that most of the Blood Angels advances are VERY useful for marines that don't put their major emphasis on close combat. Assassin Strike can help that Devastator to escape from melee, and Frenzy can be useful to almost anyone that knows they have to go in close (the one turn to activate it is the major drawback to using it as a response to enemy action).

Also, I recall that Apothecaries always seemed more melee focused than ranged, but I haven't played the tabletop since 95 or so.

tkis said:

tkis said:

I would just like to say that when your entire purpose for existing, your entire life since before you were a teenager, and your entire purpose for being seconded to another organization is so you can kill things with the most extreme efficency known to the IOM.........someone who can kill twice as many...well that is obviously a relevent fact. To do otherwise would be like taking a ford fiesta to a race and saying its just as good as an Bugatti Veyron because hey, then both finished the race right, the Veyron just did it a little faster.

leperkhaun said:

And that is the whole point, it is a cooperative rather than competative experience. As long as both players enjoy the ride, and both characters pull their weight, all is fine for me. And to claim, that a Space Wolf assault marine is not good enough to perform in the role, which is expected from him is total nonsense. Ultramarines and Dark Angels are not perfectly tooled for close combat as well, but they, as well as Space Wolves are perfectly able to perform good enough in the close combat role. Every chapter is perfectly playable within all their allowed specialties, all of them perform differently, so what ? Is it about proving to your fellow players, that your character is the ultimate badass around the block ? Perhaps some people need stuff like that, i dont. I somehow see enough meaningful ways to enhance the gaming experience, outside of the comparison of close combat prowess.

deinol said:

No, since I don't think Tacs are underpowered.

• They make the best leaders.
• They are more flexible than Devastators or Assault Marines (requisition a flamer or melta, more balanced skills)
• Bolters are plenty good at smashing hordes or single targets. The free special ammo helps them tailor their loadout.
• Requisition a jump pack, if you want manueverability

The game is not a competition to do the most damage. If that were the case, everyone would want to roll a Watch-Commander and Exterminatus.

Alright, so, for the purely combat talents/skills, BA have 3500 points worth of talents available (not including slayer due to cost/specificiness).

Lets assume, in this example, that the BA player chooses to buy only his oh so cool frenzy/flesh render/assassin strike talents, right off the bat.

Alright, so, for 3500

+10 WS, +10 str, +5 agi, +5 toughness, TWW(melee/ballistic), hardy, so basically, one extra attack, better ability to be healed, and about half the bonuses of frenzy anyway. Flesh render is nice, but not that useful

So, then, as the BA tries to buy these back, the SW is then starting to train things like crushing blow, lightning strike, sure strike, lightning reflexes, and various other things.

Not everyone likes frenzy anyway, it can easily lead to problems (hey, didn't we want to capture one of them?).

Dunno what to think of all these melee vs ranged discussions.

Imo both are tools that have their moments, and nothing prevents an assault marine from requisitioning a bolter to stay flexible. In confined spaces you´re the king with melee. In open terrain (or simply unsuitable situations) you can sit back an plonk away with that bolter and use melee as a means of counterattack.

Melee should be seen as a tool at which the assault marine is supposed to be good at, and not "the only thing he can possibly do". Sure you´ll probably have less BS than your tac or dev buddy, but so what? At least you´re not boned when it gets close and personal. Imo I smell a bit of tunnelvision regarding this topic.

I am interested in other people’s thoughts on the matter. I may have missed some points, or may have misrepresented the rules.

I am considering using parts of the system for a Fallout homebrew. I want to think about things some more.

Mostly I was board out of my mind as my sisters and wife helped the photographers wrangle the children for a shoot. I flipped though my new copy of Rogue Trader, and noted what melee talents I may want to select. I was then a bit disgruntled to find out that they were either not available in the Assault Marine progression charts, or would end up costing me a considerable bit more XP to obtain, or both. Yet they were on the Blood Angles table.

At any rate I find reading other peoples take on the situation enlightening.

And I plan on requisitioning one (1) or two (2) bolters with melee chain attachments, as bolters are clearly _FAR_ superior to melee weapons. I still plan on going melee, but I find the notion of not using a bolter in this system silly as they are uber beyond uber (to the point of questioning the logic of Space Marines not having Assault Marines equip them as standard . . . it makes me think they must be stupid). Bolters = win.