RtL -- Alric + Silver Beasts + Danger = Invincible!

By Dragontooth, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Posted at

Hi Descent folks,

I have played several RtL campaigns and so far the heros haven't yet managed to make it past Copper level. This problem is that Alric with silver beasts and one point of event treachery is basically invincible. With the event treachery, the Overlord can grab Danger, which gives him 14 threat on round 1. He then purchases 2 silver Hell Hounds and 2 silver Razorwings which enter the game on Round 2. With 4 silver Hell Hounds and 4 silver Razorwings in play, a copper hero party, no matter how strong, has no chance. The Overlord just blocks their path to Alric with Hell Hounds and takes on the weakest heros one at a time with the Razorwings. Four Razorwings can take out the average hero with 3 or less armor in one turn, with four armor in two turns. Guarding doesn't really work because silver Hell Hounds (with Doom! in play) can inflict at least one damage on almost any hero, canceling the Guard order, and Soaring Razorwings are almost impossible to kill otherwise. A strong copper party can kill at most two of these creatures in a single round and the Overlord easily has enough threat to get them back on the board immediately. The best I managed to do in three different campaigns was 22 damage against Alric once, but Alric just ran and hid behind silver beasts while he regenerated and the party got crushed after that, because they hadn't done any harm to the Hell Hounds and Razorwings. Each campaign, the Overlord just marched Alric to Tamalir and I couldn't defeat him, even with 12-15 potions in hand and a generous selection of copper items. Is there any defense against this strategy? I don't see how to beat this combination at copper level.

It looks to me like Eliza + Silver Beasts + Danger is equally bad. I've only gone against her once so far, but the heros were destroyed. Eliza can quickly power up to 4 Hell Hounds + 2 Nagas + 1 Master Naga . . . and silver Nagas just slice through a Copper party. Any strategy advice from the Descent masters out there would be appreciated! I'm thinking right now that House Rules is the only answer.

Posted at

Hi,

The hero Tobin is kind of very strong :)

Posted at

i'm a bit...confused.... probably you forgott something.. or i dont know.

it's hard to belive that thing so i TRY to suggest you some little thing you and your party probably have missed (i guest, so dont take me wrong)

-Soaring to began, works only if the monster dont make attacks. if a razorwing attack you, in your turn he's dont have soaring anymore since the next OL turn

-the heroes must not so close each others, so they can easly avoid stuff like explosion and breath

-the heroes can use their fatigue to increase they're movement or power dice.

- the white hellhoundsare easy to kill(without aura) so in your turn you can come close to them with fatigue and chose fight (attack twice). A basic warrior with a weak copper weapon can kill one at 80% and 2 at 50% in 1 turn

-Alric is strong at copper but not invincibile. so try to kill first he's minion, the OL can purchase newones, but it makes 2 turn to enter in the map and usualy the hellhound's dont move so fast(the razorwing do, but reand the first point) and if they will do, it cost 2 treath token for each step

- To have all the power up you describe, the OL have to make a lot of expirience. how about you? enter a dungeon , activated a gliph and you have 4 exp. complete a basic dungeon and all of you will have approximately 1500 coin and 18px . and with this, you can buy copper treasure and some training(like power dice or increase them to silver too)

Posted at

Jack and THE Hammer said:

Soaring to began, works only if the monster dont make attacks. if a razorwing attack you, in your turn he's dont have soaring anymore since the next OL turn

Soar
This ability is only used during outdoor encounters. Any figure
with Soar is considered to be flying above the ground, and the
range both to and from it is increased by four spaces.
A soaring monster cannot normally be the target of a melee
attack. However, monsters with Soar can choose to swoop down
before attacking. If they do so, the extra range is negated until
after the attack goes off, at which point the monster flies back
up. Heroes may use interrupt attacks (even melee attacks, if in
range) to attack a monster while it is swooping.
Note that all monsters with the Flying ability also automatically
have the Soar ability.

They can fly up again after the attack, so yes, soaring mosnters are a pain =S

Posted at

Dragontooth said:

Hi Descent folks,

I have played several RtL campaigns and so far the heros haven't yet managed to make it past Copper level. This problem is that Alric with silver beasts and one point of event treachery is basically invincible. With the event treachery, the Overlord can grab Danger, which gives him 14 threat on round 1. He then purchases 2 silver Hell Hounds and 2 silver Razorwings which enter the game on Round 2. With 4 silver Hell Hounds and 4 silver Razorwings in play, a copper hero party, no matter how strong, has no chance. The Overlord just blocks their path to Alric with Hell Hounds and takes on the weakest heros one at a time with the Razorwings. Four Razorwings can take out the average hero with 3 or less armor in one turn, with four armor in two turns. Guarding doesn't really work because silver Hell Hounds (with Doom! in play) can inflict at least one damage on almost any hero, canceling the Guard order, and Soaring Razorwings are almost impossible to kill otherwise. A strong copper party can kill at most two of these creatures in a single round and the Overlord easily has enough threat to get them back on the board immediately. The best I managed to do in three different campaigns was 22 damage against Alric once, but Alric just ran and hid behind silver beasts while he regenerated and the party got crushed after that, because they hadn't done any harm to the Hell Hounds and Razorwings. Each campaign, the Overlord just marched Alric to Tamalir and I couldn't defeat him, even with 12-15 potions in hand and a generous selection of copper items. Is there any defense against this strategy? I don't see how to beat this combination at copper level.

It looks to me like Eliza + Silver Beasts + Danger is equally bad. I've only gone against her once so far, but the heros were destroyed. Eliza can quickly power up to 4 Hell Hounds + 2 Nagas + 1 Master Naga . . . and silver Nagas just slice through a Copper party. Any strategy advice from the Descent masters out there would be appreciated! I'm thinking right now that House Rules is the only answer.

Yes, Alric and Eliza with upgraded Beasts are tough.
They are not, however, invincible.
Many other groups have successfully handled this, including mine.

Possible things that help.
1. A hero party with more than 1 melee hero is a bad choice. It might be good in dungeons, but it is weak outdoors, and the campaign is never lost in dungeons, but often lost outdoors.
2. AoE weapons ignore Soar. A decent Mage with a copper AoE weapon (and maybe a power pot or feat) can take down 2-3 Razorwings in a turn, even silver ones.
3. Use Trees. Breath attacks from Hellhounds can then only affect a single hero, and only if they are adjacent to that hero. SImilarly Nagas become quite weak (attack wise) because they are very slow and must get adjacent.
4. Eliza can be vulnerable to a hero with a knockback weapon if she gets close to the action. An Acrobatic or flying hero can go through a naga (use another hero or monster to absorb the grapple first) with fatogue and knockback Eliza to the 'front lines' where remaining heroes can battle her.

It isn't easy, but it can be done and has been done, by many different groups. Heroes should prepare and have good stocks of potions, decent weapons with backups and, if playing with ToI, A full hand of carefully selected Feats.

Posted at

@ Mcmanus

of course, but i'm pretty sure in the FAQ was specifide the monsters with soar "filies back up" at the began of the next OL turn.

@ Corbon

Even my heroes have doing that, and preatty easily. so i agreed with you

Posted at

Jack and THE Hammer said:

of course, but i'm pretty sure in the FAQ was specifide the monsters with soar "filies back up" at the began of the next OL turn.

That is for terrain. The monster can choose to 'disable' Soar for the remainder of it's turn , so that it can gain the benefits of terrain (eg shadowcloak from a tree). The 'disablement' lasts until the start of the monsters next turn.
FAQ pg15
Q: Do Soaring creatures benefit from terrain?
A: While a creature is Soaring, it ignores the terrain in its current space. A Soaring creature may choose to “land” and disable its Soar power until its next turn; if it does this it is affected by terrain just like any other figure.

'Swooping' to attack lasts only as long as the attack.

Posted at

Thank you for your suggestions!

> -the heroes must not so close each others, so they can easly avoid stuff like explosion and breath

Outdoors, you typically have to attack down narrow corridors, so it is almost impossible to avoid leaving more than one character in the breath template. Since you have to attack, you can't just sit in a tree. Typically, you're digging the Overlord's monsters out of the trees.

> - the white hellhoundsare easy to kill(without aura) so in your turn you can come close to them with fatigue and chose fight (attack twice). A basic warrior with a weak copper weapon can kill one at 80% and 2 at 50% in 1 turn

Silver Hell Hounds (10 wounds, 2 armor) are not so easy. The average hero with a copper weapon does 8 damage a turn (maybe 1-2 more with a good skill), and that's not enough to kill a Hell Hound in one turn. A hero with the Dragontooth Hammer can kill one with a small fatigue boost, but you have to have that item and the Overlord can easily counter with crushing blow.

> -Alric is strong at copper but not invincibile. so try to kill first he's minion, the OL can purchase newones, but it makes 2 turn to enter in the map and usualy the hellhound's dont move so fast(the razorwing do, but reand the first point) and if they will do, it cost 2 treath token for each step

Since you have to attack Alric, he can hang out near an exit, so the reinforcements move up fast. We've found that the Overlord can replace his losses as fast as the heros can kill them.

> - To have all the power up you describe, the OL have to make a lot of expirience. how about you? enter a dungeon , activated a gliph and you have 4 exp. complete a basic dungeon and all of you will have approximately 1500 coin and 18px . and with this, you can buy copper treasure and some training(like power dice or increase them to silver too)

The Overlord needs 35 - 50 CT for Silver Beasts + 1 Event Treachery. That's not so much when you consider how much experience and coins the heros need to be decked out with copper items. Maybe I'm just not good enough at the Dungeons, but I rarely manage to have more than Secret Training + perhaps one skill or die upgrade each before being forced to confront Alric.

Posted at

Corbon said:

Yes, Alric and Eliza with upgraded Beasts are tough.
They are not, however, invincible.
Many other groups have successfully handled this, including mine.

Possible things that help.
1. A hero party with more than 1 melee hero is a bad choice. It might be good in dungeons, but it is weak outdoors, and the campaign is never lost in dungeons, but often lost outdoors.
2. AoE weapons ignore Soar. A decent Mage with a copper AoE weapon (and maybe a power pot or feat) can take down 2-3 Razorwings in a turn, even silver ones.

The copper AoE weapon only does WG with no surge bonuses. Even with a Power potion, you average about 8, maybe 10 aimed, which is not enough to take out a Silver Razorwing (10 wounds, 4 armor). Silver Razorwings have so much movement that the Overlord can avoid clustering them. The Hell Hounds are typically waiting in the trees where AoE isn't much help. Maybe the Cone of Fire is a little better . . . I haven't had the opportunity to try that one yet.


3. Use Trees. Breath attacks from Hellhounds can then only affect a single hero, and only if they are adjacent to that hero. SImilarly Nagas become quite weak (attack wise) because they are very slow and must get adjacent.

Trees are great for defense. The problem is that the heros have to attack, so it is typically the Overlord who can make best use of the trees. It is hard to have enough movement/fatigue to run up the monster, kill it, and then still advance/retreat to a tree. Maybe you can do that for one round, but not more. Silver Nagas move 4 and don't have to attack, they can just sit in a tree and wait for you to come to them, and you're stuck if you don't make the one-round kill!


4. Eliza can be vulnerable to a hero with a knockback weapon if she gets close to the action. An Acrobatic or flying hero can go through a naga (use another hero or monster to absorb the grapple first) with fatogue and knockback Eliza to the 'front lines' where remaining heroes can battle her.

Yeah, I had a hero with Acrobat in my encounter with Eliza and wanted to get through the Naga that way. You can slip through on the front side using another hero to help. The problem is that you still get grappled on the back side of the Naga, so it doesn't work. Eliza doesn't need to come forward. A Silver Naga with Eliza's bonus is dishing out 10 damage every strike!

It isn't easy, but it can be done and has been done, by many different groups. Heroes should prepare and have good stocks of potions, decent weapons with backups and, if playing with ToI, A full hand of carefully selected Feats.

We don't have ToI, so maybe having some feats would make the difference . . . unfortunately it doesn't look like we'll be able to get it any time soon. Otherwise, I still don't see how it can be done. We refaught several of the battles a number of times just for fun and it was only close once or twice when the Overlord made some blunders. The heros never won and once the Overlord realized he needed to move Alric around, hiding behind monsters to exploit his regeneration, it was never even close. I believe you when you say you won . . . maybe my heros just aren't strong enough. I tend to prefer flexible talents like Taunt or Leadership to raw damage dealing bonuses. Maybe that's a mistake when you know you'll have to face Alric with Silver Beasts.

Anyway . . . thanks for making some helpful suggestions. Maybe someday I'll have the time and energy to publish a blow by blow account so I can get some more detailed feedback.

Posted at

Repost of previous message . . . using some format to make it more readable

Corbon said:

Yes, Alric and Eliza with upgraded Beasts are tough.
They are not, however, invincible.
Many other groups have successfully handled this, including mine.

Possible things that help.
1. A hero party with more than 1 melee hero is a bad choice. It might be good in dungeons, but it is weak outdoors, and the campaign is never lost in dungeons, but often lost outdoors.
2. AoE weapons ignore Soar. A decent Mage with a copper AoE weapon (and maybe a power pot or feat) can take down 2-3 Razorwings in a turn, even silver ones.

The copper AoE weapon only does WG with no surge bonuses. Even with a Power potion, you average about 8, maybe 10 aimed, which is not enough to take out a Silver Razorwing (10 wounds, 4 armor). Silver Razorwings have so much movement that the Overlord can avoid clustering them. The Hell Hounds are typically waiting in the trees where AoE isn't much help. Maybe the Cone of Fire is a little better . . . I haven't had the opportunity to try that one yet.


3. Use Trees. Breath attacks from Hellhounds can then only affect a single hero, and only if they are adjacent to that hero. SImilarly Nagas become quite weak (attack wise) because they are very slow and must get adjacent.

Trees are great for defense. The problem is that the heros have to attack, so it is typically the Overlord who can make best use of the trees. It is hard to have enough movement/fatigue to run up the monster, kill it, and then still advance/retreat to a tree. Maybe you can do that for one round, but not more. Silver Nagas move 4 and don't have to attack, they can just sit in a tree and wait for you to come to them, and you're stuck if you don't make the one-round kill!


4. Eliza can be vulnerable to a hero with a knockback weapon if she gets close to the action. An Acrobatic or flying hero can go through a naga (use another hero or monster to absorb the grapple first) with fatogue and knockback Eliza to the 'front lines' where remaining heroes can battle her.

Yeah, I had a hero with Acrobat in my encounter with Eliza and wanted to get through the Naga that way. You can slip through on the front side using another hero to help. The problem is that you still get grappled on the back side of the Naga, so it doesn't work. Eliza doesn't need to come forward. A Silver Naga with Eliza's bonus is dishing out 10 damage every strike!

It isn't easy, but it can be done and has been done, by many different groups. Heroes should prepare and have good stocks of potions, decent weapons with backups and, if playing with ToI, A full hand of carefully selected Feats.

We don't have ToI, so maybe having some feats would make the difference . . . unfortunately it doesn't look like we'll be able to get it any time soon. Otherwise, I still don't see how it can be done. We refaught several of the battles a number of times just for fun and it was only close once or twice when the Overlord made some blunders. The heros never won and once the Overlord realized he needed to move Alric around, hiding behind monsters to exploit his regeneration, it was never even close. I believe you when you say you won . . . maybe my heros just aren't strong enough. I tend to prefer flexible talents like Taunt or Leadership to raw damage dealing bonuses. Maybe that's a mistake when you know you'll have to face Alric with Silver Beasts.

Anyway . . . thanks for making some helpful suggestions. Maybe someday I'll have the time and energy to publish a blow by blow account so I can get some more detailed feedback.

Posted at

Dragontooth said:

I tend to prefer flexible talents like Taunt or Leadership to raw damage dealing bonuses. Maybe that's a mistake when you know you'll have to face Alric with Silver Beasts.

I think it is.
Leadership is an exception (mostly because it gives your best damage dealer an extra attack, among other options), but otherwise I really favour pure damage dealers for starting skills. Flexible skills generally come later - really only leadership and Acrobat are exceptions given a choice.
The thing is you really, really need to be able to one-shot the tier2 silver monsters, 2 shot at worst. That means Razorwings, Dark Priests and Ferrox, so you need to have at least one hero who can dish out 14-15 damage or thereabouts in a single hit with reasonable reliability (given a fatigue or two). And at least two of the others have to dish out 9-11 damage in a single hit reliably, preferably without fatigue.
Inevitably that means you need direct combat boosts form your skills for 2-3 heroes at least. And your first training should almost always be extra dice or combat skills.

That isn't easy to achieve, but you do need to be aiming at something like that...
And if you make other choices, then you pay the consequences.

Posted at

Dragontooth said:

Thank you for your suggestions!

Outdoors, you typically have to attack down narrow corridors, so it is almost impossible to avoid leaving more than one character in the breath template. Since you have to attack, you can't just sit in a tree. Typically, you're digging the Overlord's monsters out of the trees.

> - the white hellhoundsare easy to kill(without aura) so in your turn you can come close to them with fatigue and chose fight (attack twice). A basic warrior with a weak copper weapon can kill one at 80% and 2 at 50% in 1 turn

Silver Hell Hounds (10 wounds, 2 armor) are not so easy. The average hero with a copper weapon does 8 damage a turn (maybe 1-2 more with a good skill), and that's not enough to kill a Hell Hound in one turn. A hero with the Dragontooth Hammer can kill one with a small fatigue boost, but you have to have that item and the Overlord can easily counter with crushing blow.

> -Alric is strong at copper but not invincibile. so try to kill first he's minion, the OL can purchase newones, but it makes 2 turn to enter in the map and usualy the hellhound's dont move so fast(the razorwing do, but reand the first point) and if they will do, it cost 2 treath token for each step

Since you have to attack Alric, he can hang out near an exit, so the reinforcements move up fast. We've found that the Overlord can replace his losses as fast as the heros can kill them.

> - To have all the power up you describe, the OL have to make a lot of expirience. how about you? enter a dungeon , activated a gliph and you have 4 exp. complete a basic dungeon and all of you will have approximately 1500 coin and 18px . and with this, you can buy copper treasure and some training(like power dice or increase them to silver too)

The Overlord needs 35 - 50 CT for Silver Beasts + 1 Event Treachery. That's not so much when you consider how much experience and coins the heros need to be decked out with copper items. Maybe I'm just not good enough at the Dungeons, but I rarely manage to have more than Secret Training + perhaps one skill or die upgrade each before being forced to confront Alric.

Maybe my players are simply luky, but i want trying to help you anyway. or i hope i will

one of my meele player have nanok of the sword. he use a simply axe( normal item from markey. 2 hand 100 coin. 1 surge= +1 wound.

he trow red+green+2 power dice and With this equipment nanok usually deal 7/8 wounds.

With a copper weapon like the bone sword, the damage will be the same.... but it's implied 1 hand, so you can buy a normal sword and support it.

That's no pierce, so as you say, against armor there's not so much damage. the dragonthooth hammer will be a great treasure in my example, but you can deal a good damage even whitout it imho

But for sure your meele player(maybe you, i dunno) will have some good feat card like Knight, or able warrior, so probaly you can fix it.

your long range player usualy have weapon whit pierce, so, as a low-healt player they will usualy go in tree to get cover and stay away from melee. with 1 or 2 shot htey will pass enemys armor make easer way to the warrior.

this is a simply strategy, the first have across my mind so it's not a solution, but it's usualy one of the many way my players cheat me.

As my monster take cover in the tree, the melee heroes in the adiacent tree can normaly kill them without restrictions, so a tree dont make a Ol invincible.

14 TT are a lot. but to call monsters usualy required 4 Tt each one, so if he want minions, he will not able to make extra move, or add dice, you have to look at he's strategy and change your every turn as response

upgrade the heroes does not require so much. 20 xp and 750 coin and you will have a silver dice. with 500 a black dice. treasure only require coin, and you can also foud it for free in the dungeon. (not for sure but thas a chanse). so as i tell you before, with 2 dungeons, you'll have 3000 coin and 40 experience point. you can make a dungeon for week so sir alric will probably be enough far from tamalir

the silver razorwings are still a problem now i've discovered they dont lose soar when they make an attack.

if you can give me more information maybe i'll be more helpfull. for ex do you have pets like boggs or Pico?

Posted at

Jack and THE Hammer said:

upgrade the heroes does not require so much. 20 xp and 750 coin and you will have a silver dice. with 500 a black dice. treasure only require coin, and you can also foud it for free in the dungeon. (not for sure but thas a chanse). so as i tell you before, with 2 dungeons, you'll have 3000 coin and 40 experience point. you can make a dungeon for week so sir alric will probably be enough far from tamalir

if you can give me more information maybe i'll be more helpfull. for ex do you have pets like boggs or Pico?

I think this is my problem. My heros just don't do enough damage. I spent all my coins on Secret Training and two skills (Taunt and Rapid Fire) that don't improve my damage dealing capacity. Alric is basically immune to all special attacks so the only way to defeat him is with lots of raw damage. Next time, I'll sepend my coins on dice upgrades or damage dealing skills first.

My last group had Vyrah the Falconer with Skye. I have to admit that against Alric, he was awesome. One round I made 5 attacks on Alric and Skye's -1 armor ability gave me the equivalent of +5 damage, more than any of my individual attacks otherwise.

Posted at

that's was i talking about.

secret training is good, but it's not the main resource if you are searching for power.

but yours skill card are essential too.

Rapid fire allow you to make 4 attacck in 1 round if you have 4 fatigue and choose "combat action"

but you right about taunt. is not so good, only some Heroes can have a good use of it

Skye is one of the most powerfull pets, for the same reason you've just say.

Pico always give you an extra dice(and it can be pass trough the heroes) make you keep your fatigue

Mata e kata make you keep your movment (and fatigue) and space in your backpack

spirit wolf furr are another source of damage

ecc ecc. most of them can be bought by skill card in the city

Talking about skill, if you dont have to the beginning of the champain, i suggest you to run an buy(1 or 2 skill ) from this little list as soon as possible(not all of this will exactly match with the one you know, but i have a translated version, so excuse me in advance)

Spirit walker (for me it really was a pain in the neck). it' will make your mage able to kill monsters in the back lines, like he'll be in melee

Thief: at the began all my players understimate this feat...but then it was a continius rain of gold

Natural talent give you sorcery and keep you safe from traps damage

Necromancy give you a hand with a monster on your side(the number will make the difference)

War shout will make your melee hero a perferc fatigue machine

Might: +2 wound for melee attack

but, the better choise, it's always the dice. all weapons work with surge. what make surges? The dices. What dice make more sugers? the power dices. As soon you can upgrade at silver and gold level you'll doble and triple the number of surges you can make.

for this reason at the began of the game, when you choose the characters it's a good thing take a specific role, and choose the most trained heroes. for a melee hero, the top is one with 3 power dice in melee and 3 melee skill card. it always guarantie you a decent fighter. Even 2 dice and 3 skill card, or 2D and 2Card. under this is better choose another role. But a balanced group usualy do the best.

whit my OL experience 2 fighters, 1 mage and 1 archer are an Hard team to beat