A GM might be much more liberal with those than in Dark Heresy. After all which Watch-Captain is going to say no if an Assault Marine wants to learn Step Aside at Rank 1 or 2?
Such liberalism might undermine the progression system though. Otoh, Deathwatch is just the type of game where the players are supposed to be able eventually custom tailor their super hero with quite some ease.
How are you going to handle elite advances in your game?
Alex
It's not necessarily up to the Watch Captain. The GM may deems that a Rank 1 or Rank 2 character simply doesn't have the overall experience to learn certain Advances easily, and the cost in experience points may be very high. Knowing this, the in-game rationale might be that the Watch Captain finds it wasteful for a Marine to try and fast track it and spend 2,000 xp on one Talent when he should be learning it at a more 'optimal' point in his progression.
HappyDaze said:
It's not necessarily up to the Watch Captain. The GM may deems that a Rank 1 or Rank 2 character simply doesn't have the overall experience to learn certain Advances easily, and the cost in experience points may be very high. Knowing this, the in-game rationale might be that the Watch Captain finds it wasteful for a Marine to try and fast track it and spend 2,000 xp on one Talent when he should be learning it at a more 'optimal' point in his progression.
Doesn't sound too convincing to me. First of all, the Marines train and pray all day, much more than an equivalent pc from DH. Given the intensity of training, the facilities at hand and the talent of Marines for combat, it shouldn't be too difficult to pick up a combat talent, especially when in line with the marine's speciality.
As for the Watch Captain, I am not under the impression that they don't lead a tight regimen but that Deathwatch Marines are being given substantially more freedom. As I see it, they are in a sense character models in the making. I don't see obedience being stressed over the ability to make independent decisions in the Deathwatch. After all kill-teams and individual members might need to take lonely decision of great importance out in the field.
You don't foster that by telling them what to train or how to train; they need to develop their own philosophy of combat. They aren't initiates after all. They're the Deathwatch.
Alex
What's convincing to one group may not be to the next. Since it's all up to the GM, you're not going to get any meaningful guidelines here. I was just providing a counterpoint that a Gm is within his rights to simply say that you can get anything or nothing extra.
You could also swing rules for it if you'd like.
Try this:
On your progression (same Specialty) but above your Rank: +250 per Rank above yours.
Not on your progression: +500 and +250 per Rank above yours.
Using this, we could figure out that a Rank 1 Tactical Marine could take Mighty Shot for 750 since he's learning it one Rank early, or he could take Two-Weapon Weilder (Melee) for 1,000 since a Rank 1 Assault Marine could get it for 500.
I'm sure there are holes still in there to exploit, but it's a start.
Also think about it. Its not that a character doesn't know HOW to perform the Side Step but it takes the character till <whatever rank> to perform the manouver with enough proficiency that it would be a viable combat tactic at his disposal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that stepping out of the way of a weapon is a good idea but that rocket scientist may not have the physical ability to perform such a thing, without leaving him/herself open to further attack, till after quite a bit of training.
I handle elite advances as a boon i sometimes give to my players, not something they can aim or plan for, and then for a high cost, coming from the 750 for the most basic ones. The basic rules allow versatile and variable character progression, i do not see the need to bend, fix and supplement a lot. As the game grows, more tested and balanced ( hopefully better tested and balanced, than the jumble of versions, errors and hicups we got in the core book) options will become available, until then my group has enough variety as it is.
HappyDaze said:
What's convincing to one group may not be to the next. Since it's all up to the GM, you're not going to get any meaningful guidelines here. I was just providing a counterpoint that a Gm is within his rights to simply say that you can get anything or nothing extra.
You could also swing rules for it if you'd like.
Try this:
On your progression (same Specialty) but above your Rank: +250 per Rank above yours.
Not on your progression: +500 and +250 per Rank above yours.
Using this, we could figure out that a Rank 1 Tactical Marine could take Mighty Shot for 750 since he's learning it one Rank early, or he could take Two-Weapon Weilder (Melee) for 1,000 since a Rank 1 Assault Marine could get it for 500.
I'm sure there are holes still in there to exploit, but it's a start.
That's fairly easy to handle, I like it
The Watch Captain doesn't think about things with game mechanics. D&D characters don't say "Oh sweet, a +5 sword" or "Are you good at that skill? What is your bonus?"
Elite advances are things your character learns outside the normal line of training. A character doesn't learn "Step Aside" as an elite advance because the watch captain sent him down into the simulation room to learn it. He learns it because the characters in game actions warrant it. A character who spends 6 months reading Eldar symbols while he and his team are lost in the maze city of chartlesgorg might be allowed to pick up a language skill (although he wouldn't be able to speak it).
The things the Watch Captain sends characters to learn through the course of training are the things on the progression path! The watch captain shouldn't be giving out Elite Advances. That's not what the term means.
HappyDaze said:
What's convincing to one group may not be to the next. Since it's all up to the GM, you're not going to get any meaningful guidelines here. I was just providing a counterpoint that a Gm is within his rights to simply say that you can get anything or nothing extra.
You could also swing rules for it if you'd like.
Try this:
On your progression (same Specialty) but above your Rank: +250 per Rank above yours.
Not on your progression: +500 and +250 per Rank above yours.
Using this, we could figure out that a Rank 1 Tactical Marine could take Mighty Shot for 750 since he's learning it one Rank early, or he could take Two-Weapon Weilder (Melee) for 1,000 since a Rank 1 Assault Marine could get it for 500.
I'm sure there are holes still in there to exploit, but it's a start.
I am aware that every GM is going to handle it their own way; I was actually just trying to hear about it and exchange points of view. As for handing out elite advances, I am going to improvise and handle each case individually - this closes down on all potential exploits fairly easily unless it's a real world attempt of Blather on me as the GM, of course.
Alex
Why people have to be so strick about this is behiond me. If a player want to improve his caracter, in a setting were combat has a huge impact, within reasons and give you a reasonable explanation why and how, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.
I'm not set against Elite Advances, but if you'd like to know why some of us are "so strict" it is because we chose to play or run in a system which uses Chapters, Specialties, and Ranks.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a system like GURPS, where you pay your points and pick your skills and advances.
However, if you want to have a system where there is a meaningful distinction between a Blood Angel and a Space Wolf, and between a Devastator Marine and a Tactical Marine, or between a Rank 1 and a Rank 3 Marine, you have to institute and observe some sort of restriction on the abilities and attributes that each can develop. That isn't to say that those rules have to be inviolate, but that if they are "broken" more than they are observed, the distinctions tend to be meaningless.
I agree that if, during play, a character engages in ongoing development that suggests he might develop a certain trait, or learn a certain skill, it should probably be allowed.
However, I'd also make sure that the character could not learn it at a lower rank, or at a lower cost, than anyone who learned it through "legal" advances in their Chapter or Specialty. I might not even charge more for it, but simply require them to be a higher rank than one could take the skill within the rules. If you want to learn Super-Duperness, and Assault Marines learn that at Rank 4, and Librarians learn it at Rank 5, I might require you to be at least Rank 6 to learn it. I'm more uneasy with charging extra XP for Elite Advances, as I think it gunks up the Rank system. If I spend 4000 xp to learn eight skills/talents legally, and you spend 4000 xp to learn four of them as Elite Advances, why are we the same rank? You have substantially less advances than me. I would not want to charge a substantial amount of xp for these advances, to avoid more serious issues of "rank disparity".
Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:
I'm not set against Elite Advances, but if you'd like to know why some of us are "so strict" it is because we chose to play or run in a system which uses Chapters, Specialties, and Ranks.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a system like GURPS, where you pay your points and pick your skills and advances.
However, if you want to have a system where there is a meaningful distinction between a Blood Angel and a Space Wolf, and between a Devastator Marine and a Tactical Marine, or between a Rank 1 and a Rank 3 Marine, you have to institute and observe some sort of restriction on the abilities and attributes that each can develop. That isn't to say that those rules have to be inviolate, but that if they are "broken" more than they are observed, the distinctions tend to be meaningless.
I agree that if, during play, a character engages in ongoing development that suggests he might develop a certain trait, or learn a certain skill, it should probably be allowed.
However, I'd also make sure that the character could not learn it at a lower rank, or at a lower cost, than anyone who learned it through "legal" advances in their Chapter or Specialty. I might not even charge more for it, but simply require them to be a higher rank than one could take the skill within the rules. If you want to learn Super-Duperness, and Assault Marines learn that at Rank 4, and Librarians learn it at Rank 5, I might require you to be at least Rank 6 to learn it. I'm more uneasy with charging extra XP for Elite Advances, as I think it gunks up the Rank system. If I spend 4000 xp to learn eight skills/talents legally, and you spend 4000 xp to learn four of them as Elite Advances, why are we the same rank? You have substantially less advances than me. I would not want to charge a substantial amount of xp for these advances, to avoid more serious issues of "rank disparity".
Since the first day I opened Dark Heresy I hated the fact the game uses a Rank and Career system (also known as Class and Level). With the release of Inquisitor's Handbook and subsequent supplements the system got a bit better revised. Background packages, alternate career ranks (prestidge classes?), campaign advances, and so forth. The problem continues however, as with each new "game" published they go back to the dreaded and hated career/rank beginning. Sure, Rogue Trader took a step in the right direction and removed rank titles, but it was still there.
My character cant do this cause he is that. My character cant do that cause he is this. And so forth prevents a lot of individual player wishes. Elite Advances was a clumsy way of addressing this issue, but there was never a fair and balanced way of implementing them. It was alwyas just GMs descretion and "be fair" warnings. Charge them money, time, XP, Insanity whatever, as long as the GM was fair and it made sense.
Not real good rules for a rules heavy system. In fact I could go on for pages about how the entire system has areas that are uber rules heavy and then other areas that are just vague and "work" solely based on GM's fiat and a hand wave.
I tend to allow each player to have one "background" skill randomly rolled (or picked) from a chart similar to the ones used in 1E and 2E WFRP. In addition any skill that a player gets to treated as a "Basic Skill" from his or her homeworld is available as an elite advance for 100XP despite his or her career or rank. The same goes for starting skills/talents from your career that were of the "or" option (pick Unremarkable or Ambidextrous).
I tend to allow basic skills as elite advances for around 250 XP and advanced skills for about 500xp (sort of how to the building a ascension character top to bottom works in that book).
I also allow IP to be bought off at 100XP per point and CP at 250XP per point.
However, no Elite Advance expenditures count toward the PCs rank advancing as they are learning outside of their field.
Peacekeeper_b said:
Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:
I'm not set against Elite Advances, but if you'd like to know why some of us are "so strict" it is because we chose to play or run in a system which uses Chapters, Specialties, and Ranks.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with a system like GURPS, where you pay your points and pick your skills and advances.
However, if you want to have a system where there is a meaningful distinction between a Blood Angel and a Space Wolf, and between a Devastator Marine and a Tactical Marine, or between a Rank 1 and a Rank 3 Marine, you have to institute and observe some sort of restriction on the abilities and attributes that each can develop. That isn't to say that those rules have to be inviolate, but that if they are "broken" more than they are observed, the distinctions tend to be meaningless.
I agree that if, during play, a character engages in ongoing development that suggests he might develop a certain trait, or learn a certain skill, it should probably be allowed.
However, I'd also make sure that the character could not learn it at a lower rank, or at a lower cost, than anyone who learned it through "legal" advances in their Chapter or Specialty. I might not even charge more for it, but simply require them to be a higher rank than one could take the skill within the rules. If you want to learn Super-Duperness, and Assault Marines learn that at Rank 4, and Librarians learn it at Rank 5, I might require you to be at least Rank 6 to learn it. I'm more uneasy with charging extra XP for Elite Advances, as I think it gunks up the Rank system. If I spend 4000 xp to learn eight skills/talents legally, and you spend 4000 xp to learn four of them as Elite Advances, why are we the same rank? You have substantially less advances than me. I would not want to charge a substantial amount of xp for these advances, to avoid more serious issues of "rank disparity".
Since the first day I opened Dark Heresy I hated the fact the game uses a Rank and Career system (also known as Class and Level). With the release of Inquisitor's Handbook and subsequent supplements the system got a bit better revised. Background packages, alternate career ranks (prestidge classes?), campaign advances, and so forth. The problem continues however, as with each new "game" published they go back to the dreaded and hated career/rank beginning. Sure, Rogue Trader took a step in the right direction and removed rank titles, but it was still there.
My character cant do this cause he is that. My character cant do that cause he is this. And so forth prevents a lot of individual player wishes. Elite Advances was a clumsy way of addressing this issue, but there was never a fair and balanced way of implementing them. It was alwyas just GMs descretion and "be fair" warnings. Charge them money, time, XP, Insanity whatever, as long as the GM was fair and it made sense.
Not real good rules for a rules heavy system. In fact I could go on for pages about how the entire system has areas that are uber rules heavy and then other areas that are just vague and "work" solely based on GM's fiat and a hand wave.
I tend to allow each player to have one "background" skill randomly rolled (or picked) from a chart similar to the ones used in 1E and 2E WFRP. In addition any skill that a player gets to treated as a "Basic Skill" from his or her homeworld is available as an elite advance for 100XP despite his or her career or rank. The same goes for starting skills/talents from your career that were of the "or" option (pick Unremarkable or Ambidextrous).
I tend to allow basic skills as elite advances for around 250 XP and advanced skills for about 500xp (sort of how to the building a ascension character top to bottom works in that book).
I also allow IP to be bought off at 100XP per point and CP at 250XP per point.
However, no Elite Advance expenditures count toward the PCs rank advancing as they are learning outside of their field.
I couldn't agree more.