Greetings, brethern
Greetings, FFG

I am puzzled by the rules for Transgenetic Grafting on p.203 of the Radical´s Handbook. There it is said, that a botch role will lead to the patient gaining a mutation and 1d10 Corruption Points. While I am totally fine with the mutation, I feel pretty unsure about the corruption points.

As far as I remember from the "Corruption Point" discussion following the release of "Rejoice! For you are True", corruption points are only gained by sources releated to chaos. How is it then that genetic tempering produces CP? Especially if I am playing with the alternate CP rules from RH, things can grow really weird.

Hoping for an official reply
Kind regards

Gregorius21778

My guess, although this is a complete guess, is that the corruption points are meant to be a means of potentially inflicting a malignancy on the graftee as a further example of how poorly the alien tissue has been melded with the human body. Essentially every result on that table could be construed as being a side-effect of xenos biology on a being improperly joined with it.

It does seem odd though that corruption points are gifted though a failed procedure,as there's no indication that any invocation of the dark powers is involved. I can only assume, in line with my guess, that they are meant to reflect the body's rejection of the Xenos tissue or unintended characteristics inherited from the donor, without forcing the acolyte to automatically receive both a mutation and a malignancy upon a failed forbidden lore test. I think it's just an example of the game mechanics improperly meshing with what they represent.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

Hi Gregorius.

I have to agree with Dr. Schadenfreude here. It really does seem odd, and is likely as he describes: a poor meshing of mechanics with what they are supposed to represent ... or, there is some narrative there behind the technology involved that didn't get printed.

In any case, I hope you get an official answer, as I have a player who really wants to look into the possibility of having it done to himself. And yes, my players are way, waayyy Radical.

Corruption points represent the corruption of the flesh, of the holy human form. Generally this comes from warp exposure, but grafting on xenos bits is just as bad. The CP's gained through a failed procedure could be the xenos bits trying to take over the host or trying to control the host thus corrupting the recipient in some way.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yep, rationally speaking, this makes perfect sense to me, as well. But ... as I understand the rules, corruption only comes from warp/chaos exposure. If I

''ve missed something, I am more than eager to know it.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I wouldn´t say that. After reading the section in the core rules which state for exactly what somebody will gain CP for I would say that the corruption of the human form seems to be a result, not the souce of, CP.

Think of the process-it really is the medical equivalent of trying to graft and superglue a freshly hacked off chicken leg to a tree and hoping it will grow more chicken legs in springtime.

You aren't going to get that done with the Imperiums mix of Scientology, Bush Mechanics and Secret Menz Mechano club that looks after the technology... anything that does actually work once, is probably sheer luck, anything that works twice is going to require lets say 'sorcerous' levels of tech heresy to make it work.

Prehaps it could be viewed that it is not so much as CP gained, but rather a decrease in max CP they are able to withstand, before further malignancies/total corruption? Representing how the xenos biology interacts with the human biology in such a way that they are more prone to mutation/corruption. Just an idea.

Gregorius21778 said:

Doesn't mean you couldn't get Corruption Points from engaging in a bit of transgenic blasphemy... afterall, many Xenos species differ considerably from humans in the way they interact with the Warp (the Eldar are significantly more psychic, Orks produce a lot of psychic background noise, Tyranids are all fundamentally linked to the Hive Mind, while the Tau are significantly less psychic, and species like the Slaugth are untouched by the Warp), which could open the door for the taint of the Immaterium to get in...

Well, DH has been fairly straight forward with what does and does not constitute corruption. Xeno-genetic tampering is one of the only things that breaks those clear definitions. And while I agree that the Corruption mechanic is eminently suitable for this kind of thing, it still isn't anything to do with Chaos.

My opinion for handling the transgenic thing would be to:

a.) Assign Insanity Points rather then Corruption Points.

b.) Assign malignancies or even mutations as I felt appropriate, ignoring any corruption the character currently has.

The IPs simulate the mental trauma and damage from having something deeply alien blended into your physical being, and the possible effects on your mind as the xeno-influence leaves its mark.

The malignancies in particular strike me as a great way to simulate the "otherness" the character exudes as a consequence of the treatment. I especially like the strange quirk malignancy for its roleplaying potential. I could just imagine the character having a freaky obsession with rubbing himself against carpeting/curtains because the alien bits of him REALLY like feeling the tickle of static electricity...or his habit of "smelling" with his mouth, involving opening his jaws as wide as they go, breathing heavily and probably slobbering a great deal. Really, your options here are only limited by your creativity.

That way you simulate both the mental instability and the physical effects, without tying it to the Corruption track. I also don't think that 1 or 2 malignancies is inappropriate for every treatment you undergo, since this really isn't the sort of thing a character is undertaking lightly...or very often.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

How many aliens have desirable traits that are unrelated to the warp and not available through less heretical means ?

For example if you wanted to see in the dark, you wouldn't give yourself xeno eyes. You would go with cybernetics, which would be cheaper, safer and are completely legal.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

...which I would agree upon if this would be side-effects for a certain groups of xenos. But It is "per se".

@KommissinarK
Even if I look at it the other way around, this biological fumbling still lead to an effect that (defined by the core rules) only Chaos should have.

@MKX
Thanks for the input. I am that much used to all this unbelieveability in 40K that I did not thought about that option. But in that case I do not understand why the paragraphs do not include one word about "foul magic" or "workings of the warps"; normally, terms like this are actually over-used in the excess in the fluff-descriptions of such textes.

@Everyone
Does one of you know of an eMail-Adresse to ask questions directly to FFG? I think I remember that in some other topic I heared about something like this once.

Gregorius21778 said:

Bottom of the page, Rules Questions.

Gregorius21778 said:

...which I would agree upon if this would be side-effects for a certain groups of xenos. But It is "per se".

You also need to consider what kinds of xeno parts someone would want grafted to their flesh:

- Being an overt radical will usually be bad for ones health, so you would probably want something concealable (at the very least, something you can hide under normal looking clothing).

- Cybernetics are usually safer, cheaper and are accepted across most of the Imperium. So if you could get the effect through a cybernetic you would be stupid to risk a xeno-graft.

- Gland Warriors (RT: Into The Storm) show that the ad-mech have some impressive ways to augment someone with extra fleshy parts.

- For them to be worth the risks, you would want something rather potent.

That makes the range of desirable xeno-grafts very small (the examples given don't sound like willing recipients). I can't think of any that wouldn't involve the warp. If they all involve the warp, then the CP isn't a surprise.

Then you have issues with rejection. That is a serious problem even when transplanting organs from one human to another, with many matches that are simply incompatible. Even when they do match, the recipient is looking at a lifetime of drugs to prevent their immune system rejecting the organ. And that's just a transplant between members of the same species. Transgenic grafting is looking at an implant from a species with a completely different evolutionary history, so I'd be surprised if the problems involved didn't include figuring out how to get it to extract oxygen from the recipients blood. Plenty of room for the warp to be involved to smooth over a problem.

@Everyone
Does one of you know of an eMail-Adresse to ask questions directly to FFG? I think I remember that in some other topic I heared about something like this once.

Try this link.