As far as I've been playing it, you enter combat against a monster, and make the Horror check. Before you attempt the combat check, you decide to use the Flute, and automatically "defeat" all monsters on your spot. For all intents and purposes, "defeat" is effectively the same as "pass a combat check against."

I don't see any issues with the Rat Thing. You're not actually making any combat check, so you're not subject to its ability. You're using the Flute instead of making a combat check, and you're handling all the Flute's victims as though you had passed a combat check against them. Passing a combat check against a Rat-Thing simply means you take it as a trophy.

subochre said:

Spawn monsters like DH and the Tendril of Nyogtha can't be claimed as trophies because they don't belong in the monster cup.

One way you can take "return to the box" monsters as trophies is when you're instructed to draw a random monster from the cup and claim it as a trophy

zealot12 said:

do i have to make a horror check? for me, this just meant i cannot use it as a saver after a failed combat check. it does not say "immediately before a combat check" nor "after the horror check" nor "instead of a combat check". to my understanding i could just move to a location with monsters and use it. otherwise, could i first do an evade check and then use the flute?

we play "defeat" has the same consequences as "passed a combat check"

The time you'd normally make a Combat check is when you enter battle with a monster and have survived the Horror check. So I'd say you have to make the Horror check first. Then, before you make the Combat check, you use the Flute.

Some time ago, "Defeat" was clarified to be "pass a combat check against." This means that Mi-Go would be removed from the game and you'd get a unique item, Endless monsters would return to the cup, etc.

but the flute doesn't say anything about "the time you'd normally make a combat check". it just says before making a combat check. which leads to the next question: what if there are 3 monsters and i killed one of them. may i use the flute to defeat the other 2?

or what if i failed the first combat check against a monster. may i use the flute "instead" of the 2nd one? using your definition it would be yes, but looking at the wording on the card i think it should be no.

Horror checks precede Combat checks unless you have a skill or item that lets you pass the former automatically, engage in combat with a monster that has no horror rating, or you're playing with Hank Samson, so the phrase "before making a combat check" usually implies making a horror check first.

There's nothing on the card that suggests that the item's usage is restricted to the first combat check.

We have to assume that the Flute means "immediately before making a combat check" because otherwise, you could justify using the Flute anytime you like, and claim that it's before some combat check will be made sometime.

"Before making a combat check" can only mean "right before an imminent combat check."

Tibs said:

Perhaps in a different game.

Dont know if these are already answered or included in the FAQ but:

Does the text on the Blood and Soul pacts disallow you from spending power as a clue if the pact is exhausted, or does it just refer to the upper part of the text?

And a niggly question: how the blazes do I show they are exhausted without making a mess of my play area?

Tibs said:

why would that be a problem?

Tibs, I assume you've already assimilated everything posed in the "Comprehensive FAQ Project" above?

Yes, I'm gathering up these questions. You don't have to worry about that

letsdance said:

Because then the text "before making a combat check" is meaningless, because all times in the game are before making a combat check. You can't assume that it works before making a horror check that precedes a combat check, because the flute doesn't say "before making a horror check."

Tibs said:

Well, except for right before Azathoth wakes up. Maybe that's how his attack works: someone used the Flute in a move that retroactively turned out to be illegal, and the resulting paradox unmakes the world

Tibs said:

and what is the problem with that? look at the effect: i can use the flute to defeat all monsters in my current location. why is it a problem if i can use that anytime? the ancient ones aren't in any location, and so far no one has brought a serious argument against it, other than "it cannot be because i said so". the only argument might be, that they could have written "before the horror check" but then it would have caused troubles with monsters that don't need horror checks, and with abilities that let you skip or delay a horror check. therefore its obvious that "before combat" check is a better wording.

from my point of view there is only 2 possibilities: (1) either i have to face the monsters that i am defeating with the flute, (2) or i don't. in case (1) i would have to confront them all, and make a horror check against all. in case (2) i don't need any horror check. your explanation, that i have to face one monster of my choice sounds just wrong.

But that's not how combat is conducted. If there are several monsters in one location, you don't make a horror check against all, and then a combat check against all; you fight them one at a time. So for the purpose of using the flute, make a horror check against one monster(if applicable), and then use the flute to defeat all

The argument is not "because I said so" but "because the basic principles of textual interpretation say so." If they had meant the effect to be usable any length of time prior to any possible combat check, it would have been outright misleading for them to simply phrase it as "before a combat check." If you want to get real technical about it, the reason for this is that using the phrase "before a combat check" and intending that to effectively mean "anytime (ever, really just go for it whenever)" would violate Grice's conversational maxims of Quantity, Relation, and Manner.

In any case, it's been submitted. Any other questions in the meantime?

zealot12 said:

no you don't =) you use the flute before making a horror check. because what you describe makes no sense at all.

:/

Oh, well...

Think of the flute as an area of effect weapon/item. When you use it against one monster in your current location, it affects all other monsters as well. Note that you also take damage after using it,(the loss of 3 stamina and 3 sanity) so it makes sense actually

Pssst! Letsdance! You realize, of course, that you're arguing a position to a roomful of players who know that you're wrong. It's not that we don't appreciate your reasoning--some of us tried that same path years ago--it's just that, well, you're wrong. We've tried to explain why, but it's clashing with what you have in your head, and as long as you maintain that, we can't really help. So we shall wait for the FAQ.

But you are, in fact, wrong. Sorry about that.

Tibs, you got something in there about the usage of the Patrol Wagon to and/or from those hard-to-reach places, like the Kingsport Head or Devil Reef / Y'ha-nthlei?

Yes, the Flute and the Patrol Wagon to/from the "naughty zones" have been collected for submission.

jgt7771 said:

::Laughter:: amusingly put...

jgt7771 said:

yeah that's the problem. you know so much what is wrong and right, that you don't even consider other possibilities. once, everyone knew that the earth is flat and the center of the universe.

i was not the one who raised the question concerning the flute, so i am obviously not the only one who doesn't rely in what people "know" here. of course, seeing the hostility, that people with other oppinions get here, it's no surprise people don't voice them.

i've seen so often that suddenly something was different than everyone "knew". but of course, then people just talk like they had known the opposite ever since and refuse to remember anything else

letsdance said:

You're comparing apples and oranges here. This isn't objective reality that we're dealing with its the interpretation of rules for a game. There has been a ruling on this so that's the way it goes, plain and simple.