You admit a mistake in how Yog Sothoth The Lord of Time and Space handles Spells with the Disrupt subtype...

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

...yet you are conspicuously silent on the matter of your controversial assertion on how Unspeakable Resurrection interacts with the same character.

If it does indeed work as you say, please explain EXACTLY how and why it does function in the way you assert.

Awesome Hellfury! I think we need some TLC in general from the Powers That Be In the form of addressing FAQ and fixing environment bending cards.

Just to clarify, I dont want to debate it any further since I have explained my own reasoning based off of Dadajef's correction that went on for nearly 3 pages.

I just want him to explain his position so that we are ALL on the same page.

For the record, I dont think being able to use Unspeakable Resurrection is even remotely broken. But I also do not think the rules support his interpretation.

Marius references the error in his new article.

Marious mentions the Disrupt error but not Unspeakable. I do not think the concept of Unspeakable being usable in the Yog-for-2 combo would be broken NOW but allowing unlimmited free cost effects can either end in broken later or hamstring design into restricting new cards so I am against it for those reasons.

I'm not Marius but I talked to him during the Stahleck weekend and he confirmed that UR with new-Yog works.

He mentioned a similar cards back in the CCG days that was doing the same thing as Yog (something like: reduce the cost of the next event to zero, then you could play an event with cost X for any value of X).

Waiting for an answer directly from him, you can start playtest yog-UR

bye

Konx.

Konx said:

Thanks for that small bit of info, Konx.

Maybe I will just corner James Hata and ask him to explain exactly how this interaction works if I can't get Marius to explain why he thinks it does. Living in Minneapolis has its advantages.

He refers may be to the Starry Wisdom Deacon, but I don't understand. He doesn't work as he says.

1) For example I sacrifice my Starry Wisdom Deacon. I Reduce the cost of the next event card I play by 5.
2) I play UR and says X = 6. I reduce the cost, my actual cost is now 1 (actual cost = the printed cost after any cost modifiers have been applied, see faq p.11). X has now the value 1 (and no more 6 !) I can only choose a character with printed cost 1 (and not 6).

by default a X card in the discard pile have a cost of 0. I can't reduce a 0 cost-card (again the faq).

Yog ability is not a reducer ability, he says just you have not to pay the cost of the card, its not working as Starry Wisdom Deacon which is a reducer. And again by default a X card in the discard pile have a cost of 0, not he value you want.

I expect to see Marius to the IRV at the end of the month. It will be great to see him and you Konx if you come.

Starry Wisdom Deacon
[Yog-Sothoth] Forgotten Cities U97 / Illustrateur : Rafal Hrynkiewicz
[Character] - Cultist.
Coût : 3 / Skill : 3 / Icones : CAA
Descriptif : Action: sacrifice Starry Wisdom Deacon to lower the cost of the next event card you play this phase to 0.
Citation : No human eyes had ever seen this place, and none ever would again.

errata :
(v1.8) Starry Wisdom Deacon U97
Should read: “Action: Sacrifice Starry Wisdom
Deacon to lower the cost of the next event card
you play this phase by 5.”

Hellfury said:

My life surprisingly involves more than scouring forums for rules questions or answering them, so it should hardly be conspicuous that I haven't commented on your question. While I appreciate your enthusiasm, please respect the fact that sometimes I can't (or simply won't) indulge in your instant gratification needs.

You might be aware of a few facts:

- There are rules.

- Cards can break rules.

- This doesn't mean that the rules that aren't broken do not count.

In a dark, long forgotten past, there was a card called Starry Wisdom Deacon:

Now, the rules went back and forth on it for a while, but ultimately it was determined that cost reduction is applied after X has been determined. This had as result that Deacon interacted with another card in a one-hit kill:

Riddles
-
Type : Event
Faction: Yog-Sothoth
Cost : X
Subtype :
Game Text: Action: reveal the top X cards of each player's deck. The player'(s) with the lowest total printed cost amongst their revealed cards discard all revealed cards. Then, each other player puts the revealed cards on the bottom of his deck in any order.
Flavor text:
Illustrator: Guy Gentry
Collector's Info: Eldritch Edition U169

So, Starry Wisdom Deacon received an erratum - because it was determined that this combo does indeed work, and will likely result in instant death:

Starry Wisdom Deacon (Errataed version)

Type : Character
Faction: Yog-Sothoth
Cost : 3
Skill : 3
Icons : CAA
Subtype : Cultist.
Game Text: Action: sacrifice Starry Wisdom Deacon to lower the cost of the next event card you play this phase by 5.
Flavor text: No human eyes had ever seen this place, and none ever would again.
Illustrator: Rafal Hrynkiewicz
Collector's Info: Forgotten Cities U97

The new Yog-Sothoth specifically states: "Play a Spell event card"

Since you are following the standard procedure for playing an event:

First, the card has to be in your hand. But Yog bends this part of the procedure to: The card has to be in your discard pile.

Then: determine X, determine target(s)

Then you go to paying the cost. This is apart that is also changed. You skip the part where you pay the cost.

So, basically you play Unspeakable Resurrection as you would do normally, following normal procedure, with only 2 changes: You play it from the discard pile and you skip the part where you actually pay the cost.

Marius said:

Hey, I appreciate you staying classy and not making it personal. I was just requesting clarification, not a nasty comeback. Thanks anyways for your time.

I'll refrain from asking legitimate questions in the future.

Hellfury said:

It could be that I have been a little stressed and rushed the last couple of weeks, and read into your requests ("Care to weigh in on the Unspeakable Resurrection issue like everyone else did, or is last week's article going to be all you say on the matter?") a little more urgency than you tried to put in. I've been quite low on sanity lately, so if that's the case, I'd call off my shoggoths. I hope your question is answered regardless. And yes, I do welcome questions.

Hey no problem. You have made your point abundantly loud and clear. No need to apologize when an excuse will instead suffice.

Thank you Marius for answering the question here - and thank you Hell for asking for the clarification in the first place. I hope neither of you are too upset at the other - as, in Hell's case - he was merely typing out the question since many of us here had been wondering about it, and I'm sure he didn't mean it to sound "pushy" in any way. And I think Marius realized that (judging from his last comment) - so, hopefully, everyone is cool / calm / satisfied. I like to think we all get along pretty well at this forum, which is one of its strengths.

-

On point.... Yog playing like this makes him immensely powerful....if you can get him out, that is. Yog-Sothoth (Faction) doesn't have any cost reducers that I know of, other than Seekers of Mystery....so you might have to wait a bit till you get 6-Resources to play him...right ?

Even then...you also would have to have something big and nasty in your Discard pile....AND have an Unspeakable Ressurection also in there, having been played earlier in the game.....all this, just to get the chance (assuming you get Yog, as we noted at first).....to bring said big nasty back into play for Cost-2.

It seems like quite a lot of preparation and such, for something that might only happen once every 2-3 games....so as strong as it COULD BE ...maybe it's well-balanced since it won't happen all that often ?

Related - what would happen if Yog could play cards like this - using URessurection....... and you used it to target something like Deep One Rising ? _ would "when it is put into play" - on DOR "trigger" - when put out of Discard - so you could get a free "Destroy target non-Deep One, non-Ancient One" - for just 2-cost ? (Yog's ability)

Rosh87 said:

DOR: "Forced Response: After you play Deep One Rising,
choose and destroy a non-Deep One , non-Ancient
One character, if able."

"Play" being the key word here. FAQ states play = from hand and paying the cost, so "put into play" that is on UR won't trigger.

Deep one risgin thing doesn't work. Now, deep one rising s' game text is "when you play".

(v1.0) “X” (The Letter “X”)
Unless specified by a preceding card,
card effect, or granted player choice, the
letter “X” is always equal to zero.

Well... X here is not specified by a card effet or a preceding card. And nobody knows what they meant when they said "granted player choice", so, for me, it still doesn't work.

Deacon lowered the cost to 0. Yog says "without paying the cost." It seems to me these are different instructions, and perhaps concluded based on Deacon.

With Deacon you determine the cost and then lower it to zero. With Yog there is no cost, so no determination of cost?

Rosh87 said:

Rosh87 said:

You can use Things in the Ground (Secrets of Arkham F31) to bring Yog and hope he survives a turn being insane. Once restored, you can start using him, since the ability doesn't require to exhaust Yog. Also, Twilight Gate (Twilight Horror F12) sort of functions as 'cost reduction' (even when it doesn't work with GOO's directly) since it can be used to move around resources. So, yeah, you need to get a little creative, but once you're going, you are really going.

Rosh87 said:

Talking about getting creative: a dead Servant from Out of Time (Core Set F102) allows you to get Unspeakable Resurrection in the discard pile for free, while putting resources in the discard pile. Hermetic Scholar (Secrets of Arkham F34) also allows you to get UR and juicy targets where you want them.

Rosh87 said:

The Yog faction is good at weird manipulations, so the thing might actually happen quite often... If you manage to hold off an initial onslaught.

Rosh87 said:

Note that Deep One Rising (Secrets of Arkham F29) requires to be 'played' for the effect to trigger, which is different from 'being put in play.' So, UR doesn't work (that well) with Deep One Rising. You get a deep one, but that's it. If destruction is your goal, Calling Down the Ancients (Secrets of Arkham, F32) might be your spell of choice.

TheProfessor said:

There is determining cost, just not paying the cost. Normally, it's Select X so you select can the target(s), then apply cost modifiers to determine the cost to be paid. Even if you don't pay the cost, you need to determine target(s), and thus a number for X.

There is one thing that doesn't work: Journey to the Other Side can't be overpaid. You are not paying for it, so you can only manipulate the deck, but never draw a card.

Yog can be played for 4 with Limbo Gate and then uses it again from discard for 2 to bring out ancient Ancient One. I have a deck put together, just need big purple to make it click...

Tokhuah said:

There was a ruling stating that Opening the Limbo Gate requires a character in each discard pile to work. Still, shouldn't be too hard to arrange, you just have to hope you don't have to bring out something potentially more dangerous than Yog, and whatever you decide to raise next.

The Yog player gets to choose who they want to Limbo with... The Yog player will also be the one Calling Down the Ancients and unless the opponent is an idiot they are not going to pick a power character when they get hit with A single Glimpse, not to mention the discard foo... That being said, Yog having some discarded jank of their opponent's they can bring back is a safe bet... Then, if Yog is in a particularly bad mood IT can also hit that returned Character with one of the mentioned Spells from the discard pile. Tech is tech!

Marius you are playing the Yog's effect like the Chant og Thoth which have a different wording "Until the end of the phase, you may play those cards as though you were playing them from your hand ". The Yog's effect is not a free chant of thoth, you don' play the card as though you were playing them from your hand. It's an effect where you are playing cards from the discard pile. The Cost of cards in the discard pile can't change, a 0 cost card stays a 0 cost card.

I still have problems with this clarification.

I agree with you when you say that the cost reduction apply after X is determined. Fine.

But my problem is a card with a cost of X, once placed in the discard pile, has a 0 cost.

(reference to the FAQ : Unless specified by a preceding card, card effect, or granted player choice, the letter “X” is always equal to zero)

So, as my english is low levelled, I might underestimate "granted player choice", but it feels like to me nothing in Yog's card allows you to make a distinction between a value of X and it's actual value (which is 0).

I don't say the effect is not possible to play. It works with Servant from out of time or character with 0 costs... But UR would'nt allow you to overuse it ..You may choose another value for X, but X's actual value would remains 0, as nothing states that you might choose others values to X.

Is infinite recursion pointing back it ears ??? Imagine a combo with Itinerant scholar/YOG/UR and you'll have the return of the infinite drain domains of despair, which was one of the cause why FFG choosed to reset the game to the LCG format.

I'm afraid the ruling done to this card will have huge consequence on the game...

Dadajef said:

Since you are playing the card, it is an actual X, not a 0. You choose targets, you thus have choices, and thus you have to set X.

The FAQ mentions:

(v1.0) “X” (The Letter “X”)
Unless specified by a preceding card,
card effect, or granted player choice, the
letter “X” is always equal to zero .

This entry doesn't mention zones , so it is just as true for having the card in your hand (say, there is a card that says: Action: Look at an opponents hand, and choose a card with the cost 0. That player discards that card - This would be able to target X cost cards.) Zones are irrelevant in this case. However, the act of 'playing' is not.

The only time a 'as though you were playing them from your hand' would matter is when a card reads "...if you played ~this~ from your hand..."

PRODIGEE said:

Your concerns are not so much a rules concern rather than a balance question. Right now there are only 4 X-cost event cards available: Shotgun Blast, Deep One Assault, Panic and Unspeakable Resurrection. These are all good cards, especially when you can play them as 'very large' for free. However, the only card so far that allows you to do so: Yog-Sothoth costs 6, then 2 some of the time and requires the card to be both an Event and a Spell card.

If, in the LCG format, we would get a one-shot-one-kill card like Riddles, to abuse with Yog, it's unlikely it'll get the Spell subtype. So, there is a safetynet right there.

Yeah. I still dont buy it. If it does indeed work the way you say it does Marius, then this will require an entry in the FAQ.

The paths taken to reach your interpretation are far too long and convoluted to be logical or even to begin to have remotely practical application, especially in the face of the FAQ entry. Since this entire interpretation is based on cards that are present in a game that is no longer relevant or exists for practical purposes, it is even harder to accept at face value or even after explanation.

You have to see this from the perspective of someone who has never had any contact with the CCG. To us, it seems that either 90% of the players are idiots and only you and a few other people are privileged enough to know how to truly play the game, or the interpretation is flawed or the FAQ entry concerning X is flawed and needs to be revisited.

I notice many of the older CCG players, in fact nearly all of them disagree with you as well. You seem to be the only person so far in this thread who understands your interpretation.

I think further clarification is required in order for us to understand. After your initial outburst, I really dont care if you bother to or not as I am equally sure you would not care one iota for my opinion on the matter, but this thread is evidence that your interpretation is not as solid as perhaps you may think it is.