Hi!

What's the exact ruling to 'Garden of Morr'?

Does the controlling player place one token on the Garden every time a unit dies? Or one token everytime one or more units die? Can the Garden get more tokens in a single round or only one?

Does the Garden register kills on both sides? So would the controlling player add tokens for his AND his enemies units that die?

If a player sacrifices a unit, does Garden of Morr get one token, too?

Is it really right that the Garden of Morr is NOT limited? A player can have three of 'em out on his field??? Sounds like resource-overkill!

Please help!

Replace in your sentences dies by destroyed, nothing die during a game :-).

Does the controlling player place one token on the Garden every time a unit dies?

No

Or one token everytime one or more units die?

Yes (this is the card text)

Can the Garden get more tokens in a single round or only one?

They can get token each team one or more units are destroyed, so in a round if units are destroyed multiple times you can. If units are destroyed at the same time you can not

Does the Garden register kills on both sides? So would the controlling player add tokens for his AND his enemies units that die?

Yes, again this is directly the card text

If a player sacrifices a unit, does Garden of Morr get one token, too?

No because destroying a units is different from sacrifying a unit (cf. the rulesbook)

Is it really right that the Garden of Morr is NOT limited? A player can have three of 'em out on his field???

Yes.

Sounds like resource-overkill!

You will see that actually most units in the game are sacrified and not destroyed :-).

In many of our playgroup games players add 1 or 2 counter per game on the card.

Sometimes you have some "jackpot" (judgment, troll vomit), etc etc etc) but it does not even grant you the victory, this card is just quite well balanced. There are some great combo but with a "heavy" set up and they can be counter in different way.

There is the question of when can you use GoM, at least for me. Since it is an Action:, it can only be used during the Action windows. So for example, if units are destroyed via combat damage, they are already gone before the Action window after Apply Damage step opens. Is GoM meant to be able to be used in this instance for example?

As it is a triggered action you can use it each time the trigger occured.

See the FAQ about the actions and response action .

GoM: ACTION: When one or more units are destroyed, put a resource token on this card.

So the trigger is units getting destroyed. But how long does the trigger remain "open" for use? If I destroy a unit during Phase 0, can I add a token to GoM during Phase 4? Or do I have to do GoM right after? In some ways I prefer CoC's "response" mechanics, it also makes for less painful LIFO stacks.

See your problem from a different point of view :

Each time you have a trigger X it open an action windows for every card that can be played in response to this trigger X.

A "usual" action can be played only during an action windows, and action can be played in response to others action.

A triggered action is a "special" action that be played in response to a trigger.

This is what is stated in the response actions and actions in the FAQ.

Dam said:

This card suffers from a similar problem as Altar of Khaine did before it was changed. There is not necessarily an action window in the place where the trigger first occurs. While there are rules for "response actions", that section doesn't indicate that you can play an Action outside of an action window. It only creates additional restrictions on when the Action can be triggered. And the example given takes place within an Action window.

"Response actions are a subset of actions that can only be triggered during the stated trigger in the ability. Each response action can be triggered once per copy of the response action and only once per stated trigger. "

I'd wager that it gets errata in the future to change it from an action to just a triggered constant, like AoK.

Shindulus said:

Nothing in the FAQ states you get a new Action window because you have a trigger action. Action Windows are listed in the "Updated Turn Sequence Diagram" on page 12 of the FAQ ("Actions may be taken..."), there are no other windows. You can only do an "Action:" during an Action window. If there is no window at the point, can't use the action.

Response Actions
Response actions are a subset of
actions that can only be triggered
during the stated trigger in the ability.
[...]

And how explain that each "special" triggered action have instored modification in the rules :

Phase 0 for all begining of the turn action whereas at the begining there was absolutly nothing to do before you reset and get your ressource.

Altar of khaine and glitering tower that bring so much discussion and finally have double entry in the FAQ.

Triggered action should not have been inclued in the game the way they have been they bring so much confusion.

And that's just the fact that even if there is no valid action window defined in the rulesbook + FAQ a triggered action can be play in response to his trigger.

Shindulus said:

So you'd allow GoM to be added a token even if your opponent had say Thyrus Gorman in play and was destroyed after your turn ended (or Chaos used Berserk Fury and the unit died at the end of the turn)? You'd open a new Action window there, which then due to GoM being an Action would have the possibility to responses???

Seriously ?

Yes.

Wow, actions outside the turn structure, that's quite some interpretation. Actions outside normal windows inside the turn structure is already way out there for me (as in, no way), but actions outside anybody's turn, that's something even further outside the realms.

As there is the golden rules why an action with defined trigger could not be play each time this trigger occurs.

This is just playing with the golden rule, and at the moment each card with specific trigger :

- begining of the turn

- destroying unit

Have given or a specific ruling or a specific clarification and even the "phase 0" of the turn have been create to clarify " begining of the turn" state).

Triggered action have been confusing since the begining of the game.

There is nothing that promotes that line of thought, at least to my reading. Nothing about golden rules for extra action windows for trigger actions.

"Response actions are a subset of
actions that can only be triggered
during the stated trigger in the ability."

They are a subset of actions, not separate from them. To me that means they abide by the same rules that normal Action: does, trigger actions are just more limited to when you can do them.

And actually each action with " when unit is destroyed" trigger has been clarified and erated.

In which way when you are playing a game with the golden rule and card that allow you to play an action with a specific trigger this trigger does not bypass the action rules as this can follow the golden rule?

Since the begining triggered action (and moreover "when a unit is destroyed" trigger) are confusing because they are considered as action with trigger that can be out of a "defined by the rules" action windows, and at this moment each clarification of such confusing card lead to the clarification that finally you can play it whenever a unit (or more when it is the case) is destroyed.

Shindulus said:

Because the Golden Rule is when a card text conflicts with the rules, then the GR applies (thus the card). In GoM, there is no conflict. When a unit is destroyed, if you can do a trigger action, you can do it. There is no conflict with the rules. GoM is an "Action:" and falls under that particular effect's rules. Golden Rule isn't about creating Action Windows where there are none. If FFG would rule GoM your way, it would be an ever bigger, weirder change than the unneeded combat damage assigning change.

As for AoK, GT, RO... they will make clarification.

Because it's not important to know if I am right or you but it leads to interpretation even if you follow the rules, like AoK and GT in their time.

Triggered Action like they are actually defined are and will always be confusing.

Note, in addition to my last post :

Dam said:

And when you read a card that is written like that :

This card gains 1 Power for each resource token on it.

ACTION: When one or more units are destroyed, put a resource token on this card.

If units are destroyed no matter if this occur during a defined by the rules action windows they are destroyed right?

So "when one or more units are destroyed" occured and can occured outside a defined by the rule action window.

I think that we are still ok at this point

You say that an action can only be played during legal action windows.

I said that the golden rules allow me to play this action because I do not need a defined by the rules action windows as the card text can be in contradiction with the rules when units are destroyed outside a 'defined by the rules action window', there is conflict with the original rules so I follow the golden rule.

At this point you can continue on my last post :

No matter if I am right or you are right both "interpratation" of the rules can be argued. Eventhought if i think mine is the correct one :-), because older card have been erated in this way after this new cards have been printed. Before all those clarification and erata, I should have agree with you.

"The Golden Rule

If the rules text of a card contradicts the text of this
rulebook, the rules on the card take precedence." (p. 5)

What part of the rules text on GoM: "ACTION: When one or more units are destroyed, put a resource token on this card."

contradicts the rules?

"Players can take actions during any
of the shaded “player action” boxes in the “Detailed
Turn Sequence” chart on page 14." (p. 15)

The card text specify an event :

"when one or more units are destroyed" with no more restriction on when, so when a unit is destroyed even if it is not during a target action window you can response to this event with this action. As the card text introduce a condition even if this condition is in contradiction with the rules you have to follow the golden rule.

This is the same way for exemple a support card by the rule a support card can only be played in our own zone.

Take exemple of :

Warp Lightning Cannon

Destruction only. Attach to a target unit. Corrupt that unit. Attached unit gains 3 Power while attacking or defending.

Effulgent Boils

Attach to a target unit. Corrupt that unit. Attached unit cannot be restored.

Nowhere you see an explicit mention of the fact that you can play those cards on units in opponents zone. But the card introduce its own condition.

This condition is : "attached to a target unit" that is in contradiction with the rules, you have to follow the golden rule. when the units is not in one of you zone, you apply the golden rule, those card are playable on your own units or opponent units, you are not restricted to units in your zone, even if support cards are supposed to be played in your own zone.

Each time you give a new condition of play for a card, "target units" for support cards, any event that you can find for an action, this condition bypass any conditions given in the rulesbook cause of the golden rule. Because if this condition has some kind of contradiction with the rules you have to follow the golden rule.

Sorry for my last post, my english is poor and I make a lot of mistakes.

To be more consistent with the faq :

Response Actions

Response actions are a subset of
actions that can only be triggered
during the stated trigger in the ability.

Each response action can be triggered
once per copy of the response action
and only once per stated trigger.

The first sentence is redundant with the golden rule, the second sentence is the only important thing in this clarification/rulling.

Let's imagine a garden of morr written like that :

This card gains 1 Power for each resource token on it.

ACTION: put a resource token on this card. (limited once per turn so the card is not broken)

If we forget the limited once per turn restriction there is no contradiction with the rules so we can take this action in any action window defined in the rules.

In reality we have a garden of morr written like that :

This card gains 1 Power for each resource token on it.

ACTION: When one or more units are destroyed, put a resource token on this card.

This is in contradiction with the rules as normally an action is playable during any action window defined by the rules, so you follow the golden rules and allow to play this action only when one or more units are destroyed.

What happened if a unit is destroyed outside a defined by the rules action windows? The card text is again in contradiction with the rules so you still follow the golden rule.

That make the first sentence of the ruling redundant with the golden rule.

I hope that I have been easier to understand :-).

I think the point of this card was to cover both situations where a wipe, like troll vomit, would give you one token and when someone gets popped by flames of tzeentch, you will get one token as well.

For sure but the the "problem"of Dam was actually " what happened if a unit is destroyed during a non defined by the rules action window for example with Thyrus Gorman?"

Shindulus said:

Your interpretation of the golden rule is pretty broad. If you applied it in this way to every card, you could make a case for some strange mechanics.

Garden of Morr is not a "contradiction" to the normal rules just because it has a stated trigger. It just means its a triggered action. The triggers are set up to restrict how often you can use the Action, not to allow you even more opportunities to use it. This doesn't mean you can use it outside of an action window. They have clarified the same situation in the past.

The card basically says Action : <trigger>, <effect>.

If the trigger instead was "at the beginning of your turn" then this is very similar to a lot of existing cards. These cards didn't work properly before they introduced Phase 0. If the intent of the card was, as you say, to have the trigger create an Action window whenever it is met, then they would never have needed to introduce Phase 0. Each card would just create an action window for itself at the beginning of the turn when its trigger was met. Similarly for AoK, the card just didn't work as an Action, so they changed it to be a triggered effect. If it could have just created its own window whenever "one of your units would be destroyed", then there would have been no need to errata it.

I agree this card doesn't really seem to work well if you can't use it outside an Action window, but I definitely disagree with apply the Golden Rule to make the case that you can use it any time.

Note that, things were "strange" with "at the begining of your turn" so there is now a phase 0 called "begining of your turn"

Note that, things were "strange" with "when a unit is destroyed" and now, there is no more "action" on the GoT and AoK

(And really i am sure that when GoM has been printed, the rulling about AoK and GT was not yet in the FAQ).

And please give me exemple of cards where my logical way of applying the golden rule even if you say that it a broad way to apply the golden rule, is not the way you are playing it actually.

And this is because of the golden rule that you have to be carefull when create cards and be sure of the semantic you use.