Okay - so my friend used this card for the first time in our game last evening. We rapidly encountered several rules questions that we thought we'd consult with you all on.

The card just came out in the latest "Wailer Below" pack, so here is the text for it:

Dopplegänger

X-Cost // Yog-Sothoth Character

No Icons // 0-Skill (by default)

When you play Doppelgänger from your hand, choose a non-unique character in play. X is equal to the printed cost of that character. Doppelgänger becomes an exact copy of that character while that character is in play. If that character leaves play, return Doppelgänger to your hand.

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1.) Our first issue happened in my opponent's first turn. He wanted to play a Servant Out of Time (0-Cost character) - first, as he had won the roll for first turn. He played him...and discarded a resource, as usual. He then showed me Dopple and explained he wanted to play it, targeting the Servant Out of Time, and copying him.

His first question then, was, "when I copy the Servant Out of Time....as I put the Dopple // Servant into play....do I have to "again" sacrifice a resource, due to becoming "an exact copy" of that character ?

We thought not - since it would seem too punitive, and - rules-wise - we thought the Dopple "touches the table-top" (so to speak) - THEN (moments later) becomes the character you targeted....in other words - you should not be subject to "enters play" penalties for things that normally would trigger if an actual card (Servant Out of Time or whatever) had been played.

Thoughts ?

2.) If a Deep One Rising (or any "when this card is played /// OR - "when this card enters play /// etc.) - is in play already....and a Yog player puts down Doppleganger, paying the 4-cost to copy the Deep One Rising - do they get to "choose and destroy a non-Ancient One character" - just like the Deep One Rising does when he "comes into play" ?

3.) Lastly we had an odd situation later in that game. He had copied a Seeker of Mysteries I had (for a situational need for Arcane, and to reduce the cost of some of his bigger cards). He then committed to a story with the Seeker Copy // Doppleganger - along with a Gug (I think). I blocked with a Terror Causing creature, but did not have enough combat to "out combat" him.

The sequence went- I won Terror. He chose the Seeker // Dopple to go Insane (flip her over and remove from story). Then he won the Combat struggle thanks to the Gug....I chose MY original Seeker of Mysteries to take the wound.

According to Doppleganger's text...you must return it to your hand if the character it "copied" left play. BUT...while the Dopple is insane, he has no actual printed text, correct ?

So what happens the next round when the Dopple refreshes ?

At that point, the original character he had copied is not even in play (the original Seeker I had) ...so what happens ? Does he remain a Seeker of Mysteries, or is he forced to go back into my opponents hand...even though the Seeker left play last round (when the Dopple was Insane).

Would anything change if I had a second Seeker of Mysteries in play - still - when he restores his Dopple ? (not the original one that was copied)

I realize this is a confusing new card - with probably a bunch of ways you can play it - but I hope some of you can offer some ideas or suggestions as to the "correct" way to handle the Doppleganger in these instances !

For #1, I think the exact text of Servant Out of Time is important. I *think* it's a Forced Reponse and "after SoT enters play". In that case, I'd say that yes, you have to sacrifice a resource again. If it were "when SoT enters play" then I'm not sure, and this leads into #2...

#2 now that it is "when it enters play" I'm not sure about. The passive effect of the Dopple has Forced Response / Disrupt timing, and has the wording of "when you play". So it copies the text, and the response box windows open. It now has the text of the other cards. And I *think* we're still in the response window of the enters play, and not in the response window of the "after enters play". (Although I'm not 100% convinced there is a difference here. Take a look at the discussion of "after commits to a story" and "when it commits to a story". If I had to pick, I'd say that these effects are legal now as well.

#3 I agree it doesn't go away when the card it copied died. When it refreshes I believe it is now a pretty worthless card. It hasn't "entered play" so doesn't get to copy anything. I'm pretty sure it's a 0 skill, 0 icon card, just itching to be a terror struggle buffer. I dont think theres any change if theres another SoM in play.

Note: The other alternative is to consider the "exact copy" text. It *might* be that when it goes insane it is, in fact, like you had your own SoM sitting there insane. Aaaaand that it wouldn't go away due to the original card going away (since the text is in fact blank). When it comes back from being insane it's now just a SoM. It now has that same "leaves play" clause, but it cannot be met due to the response window for it leaving play being gone.

Not sure which of those #3 interpretations is correct.

Rosh87 said:

Rosh87 said:

Regarding 1) & 2) I suspect that any effects that are triggered by the copied character entering play will also trigger for the Doppelganger. My reasoning would be that the Doppelganger's copy effect is a passive ability that will take effect immediately. It's actually part of playing the Doppelganger, since its cost has to be defined before you can drain a domain to pay it.

I think if the copy effect was meant to be a different step from playing the Doppelganger, it would have to be designed as a character with cost 0 and a Forced Response: When Doppelganger enters play from your hand, pay X to choose a non-unique character in play. X is equal to the printed cost of that character ...

I'm just guessing, though, this is really difficult to decide.

Regarding 3) I'd again argue that this text is part of the Doppelganger's passive ability, so as soon as it is restored it would take effect if the copied character is no longer in play. I have no idea if a different copy of the character would change this. There's also the case that the copied character might leave play and re-enter play before the Doppelganger (or its text box) is restored. According to the FAQ, if a card leaves play and enters play later it is to be treated as a new card, i.e. cards don't have a memory.

What really needs to be clarified is what does 'exact copy' mean? Taken literally, it would also copy the faction, name, and text box, right?

Each of these card elements would cause problems:

- Faction: If the Doppelganger copies the target's faction, wouldn't you also have to match the target's resources?

- Name: If the Doppelganger copies the target's name, it's no longer 'Doppelganger'. This is also important when considering the text box, since most effects include the name of the card.

- Text Box: If the Doppelganger copies the target's text box, the Doppelganger's text box has been 'overwritten' by the target's text box, preventing it from being returned to your hand. Combined with the changed name, this means, there's no card with the name 'Doppelganger' in play.

Nothing of this makes a lot of sense. It's Richard Upton Pickman squared (which I always felt has a very confusing ability). They really shoud have listed every attribute of the target card that is supposed to be 'copied'.

It also has to be clarified, if 'copy' really means the targeted card's attributes 'replace' the Doppelganger's or if they are just 'gained'. The latter would make a lot more sense, imho.

Wow....I'm glad to see my friend and I aren't the only ones who found this card confusing....

See.... I would think it - WOULD - copy "everything" - like Faction / Name / Subtype - etc. .... as that is the most "normal" definition of "Exact Copy" - but I don't think you have to do a resource match - as that would be crazy and make the card unplayable (virtually) - in most Yog decks.

Instead...I think that point you made - illustrates (or perhaps SUPPORTS) the notion that the card "lands on the table" as a "Doppleganger" - and then, a moment later "becomes" the card it just selected to copy. This way you don't need any resource matches (which is only logical) - and it also gets away from potentially overpowered Copying effects like being able to use Dopple to "activate the Forced Response" of cards like Deep One Rising.

Of course, things that work - after the card is "in play" - such as Slavering Gug's "Let you wound a creature by paying 4" ability - WOULD - be copied and then useable to the Yog player as soon as the Dopple hits the table.

No ?

Clearly a confusing card though...

In my opinion, theres a subtle difference between two types of "entering play" Responses (or Forced Responses:) and I think that the Doppleganger interacts differently whit each one.

First, there are "when you play (name)" Responses, and I think that the Doppleganger wouldn't trigger them in this case, because you've not just played (name), you've just played Doppleganger then the Doppleganger became (name).

Second, there are "when (name) enters play", and in this case Doppleganger would trigger them, because it's text applies first, and then you have a (name) that just entered play.

Remember that "playing" is the act of playing a card from your hand and all steps it requires, but "enter play" just means that, that the card just entered the "in play" state (the latter could trigger if been put into play by another card effect from example, that would not trigger the first if the text don't include "play").

So, going by that way of looking at the card, you would mostly be agreeing with my personal conclusion (and the way we played it in a few games it came up)..... that is....it would NOT be able to "copy" a Deep-One Rising's " when you play Deep One Rising - choose and destroy a non-Deep One, non-Ancient One"....... but it WOULD be able to copy a T-Men's "After T-Men enters play ...choose and wound a character." - ability ?

for me, It works for the 2 cases. He becomes an exact copy when you play the Doppelganger. A card enters in play when it is played or put into play.

So you play your Doppelganger as a copied Deep One Rising it's exactly the same thing to play an original Deep One rising from your hand and so you can trigger the deep one rising effect (because you have played the Doppelganger). Remember an Doppelganger have no effect if he is put into play (with a twilight gate for example) or if he is not played from your hand.

EchPiEl said:

I used to think that too. But FFG adressed this in the FAQ 1.2

Some cards use the term “when” and others use the term “after” for their timing (ie. When this character commits versus After this character commits). Is this a timing distinction?

No. For all timing purposes, these cards should operate in the same timing window.

That's not the difference I was refering to, but that "play" and "enter play" are two different triggers.

EchPiEl said:

There are not different. As per the FAQ

“Enters Play” is an all-encompassing
term that covers both “Put into Play”
and “Play.” All cards that are “Put into
Play” or “Play” are considered to “Enter
Play.”

I lean towards having all enter play affects that would legally trigger on the target character work when the doppelganger comes in. The doppelganger is still entering play even after it's own effect resolves.

Also, going back to the resource matching. Note, that the doppelganger's effect doesn't trigger until the card is entering play. Which is after costs are paid.

Dadajef said:

I still don't quite understand 'why' it's working that way, but I'm happy to accept it's the way it works. Maybe we'll see a clarification in the next version of the FAQ.

This brings up an interesting situation though.... is it possible to bring a Doppleganger out of a Discard Pile - with something like "Opening the Limbo Gate" - without having further Resources available to pay any of his "comes into play" costs ?

For instance.... your Doppleganger comes out Turn-1 and copies the opponent's Paul Lemond. Sometime later, on Turn-2....your opponent Shotgun Blasts the Dopple, and he is placed in the Discard pile.

On your half of that turn, you play "Calling Down the Ancients" to choose and destroy Paul (as he is the only character on the table).

Then...in Turn-3 (assume you went first)....you resource and play "Opening the Limbo Gate". You your Doppleganger.....and Paul Lemond for the opponent. Each character is supposed to be put into play.

How do you resolve this ? What is the Doppleganger allowed to be ? Dopple says "when you play from your hand" - so is he instead just a x = 0 cost.....No Icon ....0-skill creature ?

Also, on the "comes into play stuff"....so you guys are saying if your opponent has put a Deep One Rising out a turn earlier...and destroyed a Gug or something you have....you can play your Dopple the very next turn (assume you have the resources) and say you are copying the Deep One Rising....then announce you are targeting the DOR with your Dopple (which now counts as a DOR)..... ? True / Correct ?

This would seem to make Dopple a very powerful Yog card...and one that should be in almost every Yog deck. Maybe this is the case ?

1) yes when you don't play the Doppelganger (in your example you put it into play) it enters play like a 0 cost, 0 skill, no icon, no subtype yog character.

2) example with DOR, yes but then you will return in your hand the Doppelganger because the copied card is no more in play.

3) yes Doppelganger is powerful. Think for example, with 8 dogs + 3 doppelgangers in your deck, you have virtualy 11 dogs. With 3 seekers of mysteries + 3 Doppelgangers you have virtualy 6 Seekers of Mysteries, etc... Then you can copy opponents characters. He plays dog, copy its dog to gain bonus for all dogs. He plays bird, you play also hastur ? Copy its bird and search in your deck for your 3 birds ! Copy the opponent's hungry dark young and put into play another 2-cost characters etc... It's a very versatile and useful card yes.

Great points....thanks Dada ! :-)

My friend (who plays this in his Yog deck) will love to hear all the versatile ways to handle this nasty guy.

Hi,

so we all agree that Doppleganger can copy A deep one Rising, including the entering effect.

Now how about the Doppleganger copying the Anthropology Advisor ? Since he's an investigator does tthe doppleganger enter at 2 cost ?

thanks for help

Wow...great question.

Surely he - CAN - copy A-Advisor (ridiculous speed booster for Miska or Agency - if coupled with Yog) since you would basically be doubling the chances for getting "An Anthropology Advisor" into play - and increasing his effects when he gets there, very quickly.

But the question you are asking is ....normally all Investigators get -1 to their cost to play (IIRC) - due to A.Advisor. You wish to play a Doppel, targeting the in-play A. Advisor....and you want to lay down the basic - (okay, I'm really tired now but will add more to this thought when I awake. Soooo tired from working long tim yesterday !!) - now sleep

msommi said:

I don't believe so. To play Doppleganger you have to match the printed cost of the character being copied. And the Dopple doesn't become an investigator until after that cost has been played.

KallistiBRC said:

Interesting question. I'm not sure though. Why would Doppleganger copy the cost first and the rest of the card second? Why wouldn't it copy the whole thing, including the cost, at the same time?

The language is not very precise on the card.

Cause he's not an investigator when you it from your hand to the table. He only gets the text once the printed cost being payed and the text copyed.

Hi,

thanks for reply.

Sorry for being a pain with all the questions but I'm trying to play it right.

Back to doppler... conundrum

If the text is acquired once the card is on the table, then the effect of deep one rising is not applicable as well, as the doppleganger card is already in play.

The decision of the character to copy is made before paying the cost or after ?

thanks

Dear all,

I am newbie to the CoC card game. Saw my friend playing Doppelganger and have a few bugging questions of my own.

1) When a player plays Doppelganger, does it also copy its skill? If this is the case, why then the card has to have a printed 0 skill in it. Should it not be X?

2) Also can two Doppelgangers copy the same character card. For example, I have one Doppelganger copy a Deep One Rising and kill of an opponent's character, then I play another Doppelganger on the same Deep One Rising. Is this possible?

brightnight:

Your second question is the easier of the questions to answer. You may copy the same character card multiple times. The only restriction would be if you are copying a unique character.

The first question is a little trickier and boils down to an unanswered questions of what "exact copy" means. I'm tending towards the printed skill of the doppleganger being 0, but... I could EASILY be persuaded otherwise. It's a tricky one.

As for the earlier question re: Investigator, Deep One: There is never an opportunity for the investigator cost lowering to affect the Doppleganger. Remember, you're playing Doppleganger, not another copy of Anthropology Advisor (AA). The cost to play Dopple is to match the printed cost of the target, in this case AA which is 3. At that point, it enters play as the AA.

Note the timing there. This is why the Deep One card has the effect happen. It enters as the Deep One, not as the Dopple. Same thing with AA. It enters as AA, not as Dopple. In both cases, however, you pay the printed cost of the card.

for question 1 : No the printed skill is 0 because the Doppel ability is working only if you are playing the card from your hand. If the Doppel is put into play (by an effect from your discard pile for example), its passive effect doesn't work. It means you have a character in play named Doppelganger with no icons and 0 Skill. It means also the Doppel is only useful if you are playing it from your hand.

Exactly. Agree with Dadajef there. ;-)

Sorry I was tired before....I tried to type a reply...then realized I had sort of dozed off at the computer...and all I'd typed was random letters at the end. Sleep, at that point, was sorely needed