Techmarines and multiple attacks?

By Jaynen00, in Deathwatch

Posted at

Bilateralrope said:

Look at this the other way - the Techmarine can make a melee attack as a Reaction while still firing away at another target with a Full Auto Burst from his bolter . That's pretty useful.

Except that basic weapons can't be used in melee, so you should be talking about a semi-auto attack. Still useful, but not as much.

OK, engaged characters can only make melee attacks. So you could try to use the Reaction for an attack while using the Disengage action to move to somewhere to shoot from.

And now, for total cheese:

Blood Angels Techmarine uses Reaction to attack a melee opponent with his Servo-arm. Then, since he's a Blood Angel and has taken Acrobatics and Assassin Strike, he flips out of melee as a Free action. Now he uses his bolter at point blank range to put a Full Auto Burst into his target.

Posted at

On a more serious note, consider that if you have one opponent tying you up, you might eliminate them with a Servo-arm attack and then you're free to shoot away at someone else with a Full Auto Burst since - with your opponent down - you're no longer engaged.

Posted at

Nakir said:

From the 5th edition space marine codex

Techmarine WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD8 2+

so one base attack but

"Servo-Arm: Techmarines and Servitors are equipped with powerful servo-arms that can be used for battlefield repairs or even put to use as a weapon. Each Servo-Arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately"

This sort of covers the use reaction to make an attack I guess but..

"Servo-Harness: A servo-harness gives the Techmarine an extra Servo-arm(giving him 2 servo arm attacks) a plasma cutter (fired in the shooting phase as a twin linked plasma pistol but cannot be used in close combat) and a flamer. In the shooting phase the techmarine can shoot both harness mounted weapons or one harness mount and another gun"

This would seem pretty fair if it worked that way, 2 attacks without losing your reaction at first, then 3 melee attacks or 2 ranged attacks with servo harness

I would simply say that the Servo-harness allows you to have an added Reaction that can only be used to attack with one of the four arms (including the plasma pistol or flamer). You can also spend your normal reaction to use another arm.

Posted at

I guess something to do with additional reactions could work a la Iron Arm psychic power gives Librarians a second one when its up. But I do think that the Tech Marine should be able to use their arms to parry as well as attack and as it stands now you get to do either or

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Bilateralrope said:

i Looking at this, giving the Techmarine Swift Attack might be a bit overpowered. But if he only gets TWW, the Assualt Marine should be able to outperform him in pure melee.

You also have to look at the rest of the Assault Marine's skill / talent build ups. With all the other HTH ooh's and ahh's combined with cheap WS and STR increases, the Assault Marine should far out strip the Tech-Marine, as they should.

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Assault starts with swift attack, and can take TWW at rank 1 so they immediately can go to 3 attacks a turn their first two strength and WS advances are 200 and 500 then 1000 and 1500 compare to the Techmarine 500 1000 1500 2000 for WS

Crushing Blow adds 2dmg to melee attacks

Double Team gives bonuses to ganging up

Sure strike giving them more control over hit locations

Berserk Charge

Wall of Steel additional parry per round

Furious Assault use reaction to do another attack

Precise Blow Bonuses to called location attacks

Counter Attack additional attack after a parry as a free action

Blademaster reroll one missed attack per round

Step Aside an additional dodge once per round

Even if a TechMarine had Swift and Lightning Attack I dont think they would hold a candle to the melee damage output of an assault marine. Wall of Steel and Stepaside means the Assault can always use furious assault to do 5 attacks a round, plus try to parry and dodge and if parry a 6th counter attack one of this they will get to reroll

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Nakir said:

Even if a TechMarine had Swift and Lightning Attack I dont think they would hold a candle to the melee damage output of an assault marine. Wall of Steel and Stepaside means the Assault can always use furious assault to do 5 attacks a round, plus try to parry and dodge and if parry a 6th counter attack one of this they will get to reroll

Except you cannot combine All Out Attack and Multiple Attacks (needed for TWW and Swift/Lightning attack), as they are both distinct Full Actions. Essentially, All Out Attack + Furious Assault is limited to two attacks, where as you can get 4 with Lighting + TWW + a 5th if you have Counter Attack.

So, it's two attacks at +20 or 4-5 at -10.

Posted at

If the basic rules are the same as Rogue Trader, a character cannot perform two Attack actions in the same turn. This would mean that the Servo-arm is much like the MIU Weapon Interface, and thus a Techmarine attacking with it can do so as a Free action, but he cannot use his other actions this turn to make Attack actions.

Posted at

Radomo said:

Nakir said:

Even if a TechMarine had Swift and Lightning Attack I dont think they would hold a candle to the melee damage output of an assault marine. Wall of Steel and Stepaside means the Assault can always use furious assault to do 5 attacks a round, plus try to parry and dodge and if parry a 6th counter attack one of this they will get to reroll

Except you cannot combine All Out Attack and Multiple Attacks (needed for TWW and Swift/Lightning attack), as they are both distinct Full Actions. Essentially, All Out Attack + Furious Assault is limited to two attacks, where as you can get 4 with Lighting + TWW + a 5th if you have Counter Attack.

So, it's two attacks at +20 or 4-5 at -10.

Yeah I am not familiar with all the actions, I don't disagree my point was that based on the way the Tech Marines are written in Tabletop they still would not be jeapordizing the validity of the assault marine

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HappyDaze said:

If the basic rules are the same as Rogue Trader, a character cannot perform two Attack actions in the same turn. This would mean that the Servo-arm is much like the MIU Weapon Interface, and thus a Techmarine attacking with it can do so as a Free action, but he cannot use his other actions this turn to make Attack actions.

You're right in that you cannot make two attack actions with your two half actions, however, the Servo Arm is an exception in that it uses a Reaction. If it precluded using your normal actions for Attack actions it would a.) say that explicitly and b.) be a terrible ability.

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Radomo said:

HappyDaze said:

If the basic rules are the same as Rogue Trader, a character cannot perform two Attack actions in the same turn. This would mean that the Servo-arm is much like the MIU Weapon Interface, and thus a Techmarine attacking with it can do so as a Free action, but he cannot use his other actions this turn to make Attack actions.

You're right in that you cannot make two attack actions with your two half actions, however, the Servo Arm is an exception in that it uses a Reaction. If it precluded using your normal actions for Attack actions it would a.) say that explicitly and b.) be a terrible ability.

You have the option of using it for a standard attack or as a reaction but you cannot use it twice in one round

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Nakir said:

You have the option of using it for a standard attack or as a reaction but you cannot use it twice in one round

Right, you can only attack with the servo arm once a turn. But that wasn't what you said originally. You can only use the Servo arm once a round as a Reaction. I'm not sure why you would want to use it as a standard attack, unless you have a GM that would let you use Swfit/Lightning attack with a Servo arm/mechandrite as long as you didn't use weapons in your hands as well.

If you have a chainsword and a servo arm and you're fighting in melee, you can attack with your chainsword and the servo by giving up your reaction, similar to Furious Assault.

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Right the whole point of this thread was about the fact that when Techmarines get a servo harness which adds an additional servo arm, a flamer, and a plasma pistol they dont get any additional attacks they still get their normal basic attacks and the ability to use only one of the weapons as a reaction.

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Hmm, is it not possible to just let tech marine use all his arm when he spends his reaction? ofc melee or ranged use only not both.

With that tech marine willl gain 2 melee or 1-2 ranged attack extra as he want for spending his reaction. Think it is balanced, powerfull and uniq.

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OK, engaged characters can only make melee attacks. So you could try to use the Reaction for an attack while using the Disengage action to move to somewhere to shoot from.

This doesn't look too powerful and seems a fitting ability for a Techmarine.

And now, for total cheese:

Blood Angels Techmarine uses Reaction to attack a melee opponent with his Servo-arm. Then, since he's a Blood Angel and has taken Acrobatics and Assassin Strike, he flips out of melee as a Free action. Now he uses his bolter at point blank range to put a Full Auto Burst into his target.

Are Techmarines fast on the table top game ?

Looking at the Techmarine advances, they look like a slow, heavily armed and reasonably durable class so one trained in Acrobatics feels like it is going against the flavour of the class*. If something goes against the flavour and allows for a cheesy trick like that, I have no problem banning it. So I'd also house rule that the Acrobatics skill is forbidden to Techmarines.

*We are talking about a class that has a very useful talent (Machinator Array) that removes their ability to swim.

On a more serious note, consider that if you have one opponent tying you up, you might eliminate them with a Servo-arm attack and then you're free to shoot away at someone else with a Full Auto Burst since - with your opponent down - you're no longer engaged.

This can be reduced by making players declare their entire turn before rolling any dice. If a player declares something, but a dice roll prevents it, their body still goes through the motions. Meaning that if a player tried this but the enemy didn't die (low damage roll, more hp than expected, parry, etc), they still pull the trigger on the gun using ammo and risking a jam despite the gun not being pointed where he wants it to be.

Running combats like this might also speed them up, as a player doesn't get the option to spend time thinking after each roll.

Posted at

Bcsordas said:

Hmm, is it not possible to just let tech marine use all his arm when he spends his reaction? ofc melee or ranged use only not both.

With that tech marine willl gain 2 melee or 1-2 ranged attack extra as he want for spending his reaction. Think it is balanced, powerfull and uniq.

Bcsordas said:

Hmm, is it not possible to just let tech marine use all his arm when he spends his reaction? ofc melee or ranged use only not both.

With that tech marine willl gain 2 melee or 1-2 ranged attack extra as he want for spending his reaction. Think it is balanced, powerfull and uniq.

A Techmarine with a servo harness has the minimum of the following arms:

- 1 Servo arm that they got from their standard gear

- 2 Servo arms from the Servo Harness

- Basic Flamer, not useable in melee so I'll ignore it.

- Plasma Pistol. Since this is designed as a cutting tool, I expect it to be on its own arm.

That gives him 4 extra arms in melee, add in his hands and we have a guy with 4 melee attacks and a semi-auto burst. How can an Assault Marine match that ?

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Bilateralrope said:

Bcsordas said:

Hmm, is it not possible to just let tech marine use all his arm when he spends his reaction? ofc melee or ranged use only not both.

With that tech marine willl gain 2 melee or 1-2 ranged attack extra as he want for spending his reaction. Think it is balanced, powerfull and uniq.

Bcsordas said:

Hmm, is it not possible to just let tech marine use all his arm when he spends his reaction? ofc melee or ranged use only not both.

With that tech marine willl gain 2 melee or 1-2 ranged attack extra as he want for spending his reaction. Think it is balanced, powerfull and uniq.

A Techmarine with a servo harness has the minimum of the following arms:

- 1 Servo arm that they got from their standard gear

- 2 Servo arms from the Servo Harness

- Basic Flamer, not useable in melee so I'll ignore it.

- Plasma Pistol. Since this is designed as a cutting tool, I expect it to be on its own arm.

That gives him 4 extra arms in melee, add in his hands and we have a guy with 4 melee attacks and a semi-auto burst. How can an Assault Marine match that ?

I think the assumption is that the harness replaces the standard servo arm - though I admit can't find it written anywhere explicitly. In TT if I remember correctly you could replace the servo arm with a harness.

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In TT the Harness adds 1 additional Servo arm, the flamer, and the plasma cutter(pistol) (which is twinlinked) each is its own appendage if you look at the Techmarine model.

Assaults already have the chance to get 4/5 melee attacks it would be the semi auto burst that could push the Techmarine ahead but you don't have any actions that could do that. Can you even use a semi auto burst on a pistol weapon if fired in melee? If an assault has a chainsword in one hand and a pistol in the other the multiple attacks are all done with the sword but there is no action left to also burst

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Nakir said:

In TT the Harness adds 1 additional Servo arm, the flamer, and the plasma cutter(pistol) (which is twinlinked) each is its own appendage if you look at the Techmarine model.

Assaults already have the chance to get 4/5 melee attacks it would be the semi auto burst that could push the Techmarine ahead but you don't have any actions that could do that. Can you even use a semi auto burst on a pistol weapon if fired in melee? If an assault has a chainsword in one hand and a pistol in the other the multiple attacks are all done with the sword but there is no action left to also burst

As per the rules you can even go full-auto in melee. We have house-ruled that this isn't allowed in our games though.

Alex

Posted at

Bilateralrope said:

Running combats like this might also speed them up, as a player doesn't get the option to spend time thinking after each roll.

No chance. They'll sit around for ages at the start of the turn trying to work out the optimal strategy, and the chance of various things succeeding. It's not faster...

Posted at

ak-73 said:

Nakir said:

In TT the Harness adds 1 additional Servo arm, the flamer, and the plasma cutter(pistol) (which is twinlinked) each is its own appendage if you look at the Techmarine model.

Assaults already have the chance to get 4/5 melee attacks it would be the semi auto burst that could push the Techmarine ahead but you don't have any actions that could do that. Can you even use a semi auto burst on a pistol weapon if fired in melee? If an assault has a chainsword in one hand and a pistol in the other the multiple attacks are all done with the sword but there is no action left to also burst

As per the rules you can even go full-auto in melee. We have house-ruled that this isn't allowed in our games though.

Alex

You can full auto in melee but that is your action, a ranged weapon used as a part of a lightning attack etc action only shoots once correct

Posted at

Bilateralrope said:

decPL said:

Nakir said:

decPL said:

Just a random thought - after reading the techmarine class (but without any number crunching), I believe he's quite capable as he is. While I agree it might be fun to give him Swift/Lightning attack to get more in line with TT/because he's a melee character/simply cause everyone's a munchkin - did anyone do a comparison to other melee-oriented roles? Wouldn't they be outclassed by someone with superior armor/damage/to hit/etc. who's able to make a comparable number of attacks (not to mention able to do cool stuff outside combat)?

I would argue 4 of the roles are melee based. I think FFG in trying to make the specialties seem more unique they were afraid of letting "support" types have the same martial prowess of the "pure" classes in MMO terms. My issue with some of these is they seem like a pretty big departure from the roles/way that these characters are used in the Tabletop and in the books you read. We don't have a bunch of armored vehicles for a techmarine to support and usually a techmarine is fielded in tabletop for the number of attacks. They also only get a small number of the things that Tech Priests/Tech Adepts from Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader get as far as the mechanicus style abilities. Why is Maglev transcendance even listed under talents if the only character that could take it in this book does not even have access to it?

Assault obviously which gets all the melee talents, dual wield, swift and lightning attack etc so he works up to 4 attacks in a round plus a reaction, Once he gets access to a powerfist he is doing more damage than the Servo Arm does in raw damage because the powerfist ups his unatural str multiplier to 3 not counting other bonus's talents etc

Apothecary which honestly does not get much in his skills period I would spend most my xp on base stats or general advances, but still gets swift/lightning at rank 6 and 7 and is definitely supposed to melee according to his stats line

Librarian while being balanced statline the force weapons and being able to channel psychic will into the blade its obvious they are meant to be in melee

Techmarine is the most hardy class, which seems to support being in the front line but can make one standard attack with the servo arm or burn their reaction to make an attack with the servo arm leaving them no dodge/parry, since they only have one attack the only use for using all out attack is for WS bonus's/lack of target dodge. Tech Marine rank 8 which is way down there would have Flesh is Weak 5 + Armor Monger + Artificer Armor: Thats +7 armor to the artificer armor base of 12 for a total of 19 compared to terminator armors 14

If the "goal" of Deathwatch is to be able to embody your favorite characters from all the space marine stuff then Techmarine fails because it does not let you become what a Techmarine is when it is represented anywhere else.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240830_99060101313_Col40kTechmarineMain_873x627.jpg

I see the Servo arm, the Omnisssian Axe, a Bolter/Flamer, Another utility mechandrite, and some other ranged weapon. It just seems like such an oversight to give a character an item that specifically calls out the multiple attacks action then has no way to get that action

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140234

And the Techmarine of course is not going to be as mobile as the Assault marine with their jump pack so closing to melee would be more of an issue

Dunno it just seems like if you got into melee range where you are supposed to be as the Tech Marine then you could stand there and let the Devastator with his heavy bolter and target selection do all the killing

Point taken. As for pure damage - I don't have the rulebook with me, but I believe the Omnissian Axe is quite comparable to the Power Fist, even for characters with a high strength (especially with Techmarine's talents).

With all that you said, I'll probably allow my techmarine player to take at least swift attack as his Elite Advance - I'll see how he compares to the other chars...

A power fist does 2d10 + base SB + SB pen 9, leaving a hand free for a parrying weapon.

Omnisian Axe does 2d10+6+SB pen 6, taking two hands with the unbalanced quality.

If the target has 6 armour or less, the Omnisian Axe does more damage on a character with 59 or less strength, they do equal damage for 60-69 strength, the power fist becomes more powerful above then,

If the target has 9 or more armour, they do equal damage with 30-39 strength, with the Power Fist being more powerful at higher strength.

Not that I doubt you, I generally like your posts, but where does it say the Omnisian Axe is 2-handed? I don't see anything in errata and the IH says it is 1 handed due to not have the cross symbol next to it.

Posted at

Suijin said:

Bilateralrope said:

decPL said:

Nakir said:

decPL said:

Just a random thought - after reading the techmarine class (but without any number crunching), I believe he's quite capable as he is. While I agree it might be fun to give him Swift/Lightning attack to get more in line with TT/because he's a melee character/simply cause everyone's a munchkin - did anyone do a comparison to other melee-oriented roles? Wouldn't they be outclassed by someone with superior armor/damage/to hit/etc. who's able to make a comparable number of attacks (not to mention able to do cool stuff outside combat)?

I would argue 4 of the roles are melee based. I think FFG in trying to make the specialties seem more unique they were afraid of letting "support" types have the same martial prowess of the "pure" classes in MMO terms. My issue with some of these is they seem like a pretty big departure from the roles/way that these characters are used in the Tabletop and in the books you read. We don't have a bunch of armored vehicles for a techmarine to support and usually a techmarine is fielded in tabletop for the number of attacks. They also only get a small number of the things that Tech Priests/Tech Adepts from Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader get as far as the mechanicus style abilities. Why is Maglev transcendance even listed under talents if the only character that could take it in this book does not even have access to it?

Assault obviously which gets all the melee talents, dual wield, swift and lightning attack etc so he works up to 4 attacks in a round plus a reaction, Once he gets access to a powerfist he is doing more damage than the Servo Arm does in raw damage because the powerfist ups his unatural str multiplier to 3 not counting other bonus's talents etc

Apothecary which honestly does not get much in his skills period I would spend most my xp on base stats or general advances, but still gets swift/lightning at rank 6 and 7 and is definitely supposed to melee according to his stats line

Librarian while being balanced statline the force weapons and being able to channel psychic will into the blade its obvious they are meant to be in melee

Techmarine is the most hardy class, which seems to support being in the front line but can make one standard attack with the servo arm or burn their reaction to make an attack with the servo arm leaving them no dodge/parry, since they only have one attack the only use for using all out attack is for WS bonus's/lack of target dodge. Tech Marine rank 8 which is way down there would have Flesh is Weak 5 + Armor Monger + Artificer Armor: Thats +7 armor to the artificer armor base of 12 for a total of 19 compared to terminator armors 14

If the "goal" of Deathwatch is to be able to embody your favorite characters from all the space marine stuff then Techmarine fails because it does not let you become what a Techmarine is when it is represented anywhere else.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240830_99060101313_Col40kTechmarineMain_873x627.jpg

I see the Servo arm, the Omnisssian Axe, a Bolter/Flamer, Another utility mechandrite, and some other ranged weapon. It just seems like such an oversight to give a character an item that specifically calls out the multiple attacks action then has no way to get that action

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140234

And the Techmarine of course is not going to be as mobile as the Assault marine with their jump pack so closing to melee would be more of an issue

Dunno it just seems like if you got into melee range where you are supposed to be as the Tech Marine then you could stand there and let the Devastator with his heavy bolter and target selection do all the killing

Point taken. As for pure damage - I don't have the rulebook with me, but I believe the Omnissian Axe is quite comparable to the Power Fist, even for characters with a high strength (especially with Techmarine's talents).

With all that you said, I'll probably allow my techmarine player to take at least swift attack as his Elite Advance - I'll see how he compares to the other chars...

A power fist does 2d10 + base SB + SB pen 9, leaving a hand free for a parrying weapon.

Omnisian Axe does 2d10+6+SB pen 6, taking two hands with the unbalanced quality.

If the target has 6 armour or less, the Omnisian Axe does more damage on a character with 59 or less strength, they do equal damage for 60-69 strength, the power fist becomes more powerful above then,

If the target has 9 or more armour, they do equal damage with 30-39 strength, with the Power Fist being more powerful at higher strength.

Not that I doubt you, I generally like your posts, but where does it say the Omnisian Axe is 2-handed? I don't see anything in errata and the IH says it is 1 handed due to not have the cross symbol next to it.

My mistake. I've checked again and I can't figure out why I thought it was a two handed weapon.

Posted at

Since I allow a Dodge and Parry reaction in my game, I'm just going to make it so that the Servo Harness adds an additional attack that can use up another reaction.

So, it would go like this:

1st Reaction used to Attack with the Servo-Arm (this can use up either the Doge or Parry)

2nd Reaction used for other Servo-Arm, Plasma Cutter, or if Ranged the Fyceline Torch (this uses up the other remaining reaction)

3rd action is the Attack Action with the Omnissian Axe

This way the Techmarine can get 3 attacks with any combination of Mechadendrites that they choose. This makes them more flexible for the situation; while the Assault Marine gets more attacks, they are only going to be with their chosen weapon vs. the Techmarine having more options with less attacks.

I think it balances out in the end.

I'm also confused as to whether the Servo Harness adds an additional 2 Servo Arms, or if it replaces the original Servo Arm with the arms located on the Servo Harness.

The RAW states that the Servo Harness has at a minimum 2 Servo Arms, combi-tool, plasma cutter, and fyceline torch. I took that to mean since the Servo Harness is a separate piece of kit that you acquire, it would add 2 Servo Arms to the one you already have.

Then again, the model would disagree with this notion.

Posted at

Right the whole point of this thread was about the fact that when Techmarines get a servo harness which adds an additional servo arm, a flamer, and a plasma pistol they dont get any additional attacks they still get their normal basic attacks and the ability to use only one of the weapons as a reaction.

maybe techmarine are short on melee attack, but get a flamer horde weapon) + plasma pistol (heavy armored NPC) and 2 frightening servo arms (2d10+14 pen 10 no other melle weapon is that strong) is already a nice gift, more or less 70 req points for free. More or less all you need to get as weapons for all encounters.

Buy some elite advance and look at what you got.