The Techmarine advances never give them two weapon wielder or swift/lightning attack but they can get multiple arms through the use of mechandrites and servo harnesses. In the tabletop games techmarines have quite a few attacks. Is there any way for a techmarine in Deathwatch to have more than one attack (besides using his reaction to hit with the servo arm or servo harness)?

Remember, there is the general advance table with swift/lightning attack.

Im not seeing swift/lightning attack on the general advance table

I'm sorry, just made that assumption, thought it would have been listed in there....

Well... the servo harness gives some extra attacks of some sort, but past that, guess they are just kinda slow.

KommissarK said:

The servo harness only gives an option to use an attack as a reaction which you already have with the starting servo arm =/

It does seem a bit harsh that the techies don't get the hand to hand extra attacks. Given that techmarines do make excellent close in fighters. I'm sure you could elite advance them - even devestators pick up swift attack eventually.

Swift attack probably should be in the general advances around rank 4 or 5 IMO with lightning attack remaining the province of the assault specialists.

I notice techmarines fon't get step aside or wall of steel either which means their reaction attack is always costing them their active defense.

It really does not jive well with the fact that a tech marine can get flesh is weak 3 which increases their ap by 3 on all areas, grants them the machine attribute and at rank 4 can make their own artificer armor (AP 12) giving them an AP of 15 but they have pretty much no attacks, I suppose you could carry a flamer as your primary weapon instead?

KommissarK said:

So they are "slow" because they are partially lobotimized from all that extra **** stuck in their brain?

Yeah and as others have said, elite advances.

I'd have to agree with Elite Advances.

Although I do like the notion of getting Swift and Lightning Attack in the General Space Marine sections (Rank 4 and 8 respectively).

This way Assault Marines have clear advantage from the beginning and it's only later that the rest of the Space Marines catch up.

Could a Techmarine with a servo-harness use the Multiple Attack action to fire multiple ranged weapons? If a marine with a gun in both hand can it'd be pretty ridiculous if the Techmarine with what is described as "servo-arms controlled by an ingenious machine-spirit capable of sublime communication with its master" cannot.

I'm struggling to find a good ranged option that won't leave my new techie in the dust compared to other characters; the conversion-beamer is a late game carrot on a stick that doesn't count.

Having chosen to play a Tech Marine as well, I too was surprised noting that they will never receive Swift attack or even the ability to wield two weapons at the same time. Sure the free reaction attack with the servo arm is nice and all, but I did expect to see something similar when they got their Servo Harnas. Strange indeed and while using an elite advance might remedy that a bit, it still feels like an oversight. I hope that we will see an errata on that soon.

Marco Polo said:

Problem is, the next sentence is: A character with Talents that make him capable of taking the multiple attacks ...

I read that as saying that if the Techmarine could use the servo-harness weapons for a Two Weapon attack. Problem is, the Techmarine does not get the TWW talents.

The DH errata does have this passage allowing two weapon attacks without the talent: If you have the Ambidextrous talent but not Two Weapon Wielder, you suffer –10 to the attack roll with your dominant hand and –30 with your off hand.

DW doesn't. Since the rest of the two weapon fighting was a copy/paste job, this looks like a deliberate omission.

even devestators pick up swift attack eventually.

A class that specialises in ranged combat gets to make multiple melee attacks, but a class that has a melee weapon that only it can use does not. How does that make sense ?

I'd just say expect it in the errata that swift/lightning attack are generic advances, as really, why on earth should any space marine be slower in melee combat than regular mortals.

Just a random thought - after reading the techmarine class (but without any number crunching), I believe he's quite capable as he is. While I agree it might be fun to give him Swift/Lightning attack to get more in line with TT/because he's a melee character/simply cause everyone's a munchkin - did anyone do a comparison to other melee-oriented roles? Wouldn't they be outclassed by someone with superior armor/damage/to hit/etc. who's able to make a comparable number of attacks (not to mention able to do cool stuff outside combat)?

decPL said:

I would argue 4 of the roles are melee based. I think FFG in trying to make the specialties seem more unique they were afraid of letting "support" types have the same martial prowess of the "pure" classes in MMO terms. My issue with some of these is they seem like a pretty big departure from the roles/way that these characters are used in the Tabletop and in the books you read. We don't have a bunch of armored vehicles for a techmarine to support and usually a techmarine is fielded in tabletop for the number of attacks. They also only get a small number of the things that Tech Priests/Tech Adepts from Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader get as far as the mechanicus style abilities. Why is Maglev transcendance even listed under talents if the only character that could take it in this book does not even have access to it?

Assault obviously which gets all the melee talents, dual wield, swift and lightning attack etc so he works up to 4 attacks in a round plus a reaction, Once he gets access to a powerfist he is doing more damage than the Servo Arm does in raw damage because the powerfist ups his unatural str multiplier to 3 not counting other bonus's talents etc

Apothecary which honestly does not get much in his skills period I would spend most my xp on base stats or general advances, but still gets swift/lightning at rank 6 and 7 and is definitely supposed to melee according to his stats line

Librarian while being balanced statline the force weapons and being able to channel psychic will into the blade its obvious they are meant to be in melee

Techmarine is the most hardy class, which seems to support being in the front line but can make one standard attack with the servo arm or burn their reaction to make an attack with the servo arm leaving them no dodge/parry, since they only have one attack the only use for using all out attack is for WS bonus's/lack of target dodge. Tech Marine rank 8 which is way down there would have Flesh is Weak 5 + Armor Monger + Artificer Armor: Thats +7 armor to the artificer armor base of 12 for a total of 19 compared to terminator armors 14

If the "goal" of Deathwatch is to be able to embody your favorite characters from all the space marine stuff then Techmarine fails because it does not let you become what a Techmarine is when it is represented anywhere else.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240830_99060101313_Col40kTechmarineMain_873x627.jpg

I see the Servo arm, the Omnisssian Axe, a Bolter/Flamer, Another utility mechandrite, and some other ranged weapon. It just seems like such an oversight to give a character an item that specifically calls out the multiple attacks action then has no way to get that action

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140234

And the Techmarine of course is not going to be as mobile as the Assault marine with their jump pack so closing to melee would be more of an issue

Dunno it just seems like if you got into melee range where you are supposed to be as the Tech Marine then you could stand there and let the Devastator with his heavy bolter and target selection do all the killing

Nakir said:

Point taken. As for pure damage - I don't have the rulebook with me, but I believe the Omnissian Axe is quite comparable to the Power Fist, even for characters with a high strength (especially with Techmarine's talents).

With all that you said, I'll probably allow my techmarine player to take at least swift attack as his Elite Advance - I'll see how he compares to the other chars...

To be honest, I rather see a mechanism that allows the Techmarine to utilize his special appendages. I like the use your reaction for the servo arm attacking as well. Something similar should happen with the Servo Harnas. It should allow him to use one more weapon system Be it another Servo Arm attack or a blast from that plasma gun. Plus his original normal standard attack.

Giving him Swift Attack would allow him to strike twice with his normal attack. Giving him dual weapon fighting also misses the idea behind the Tech Marine. Because it gives him the ability to fight with his two hands. A Techmarine should get his extra attacks thanks to his cyberware imo.

decPL said:

A power fist does 2d10 + base SB + SB pen 9, leaving a hand free for a parrying weapon.

Omnisian Axe does 2d10+6+SB pen 6, taking two hands with the unbalanced quality.

If the target has 6 armour or less, the Omnisian Axe does more damage on a character with 59 or less strength, they do equal damage for 60-69 strength, the power fist becomes more powerful above then,

If the target has 9 or more armour, they do equal damage with 30-39 strength, with the Power Fist being more powerful at higher strength.

Sister Callidia said:

Sister Callidia said:

Looking at the RAW on the servo harness, if you gave the Techmarine both TWW talents then he would be able to make three attacks:

- 1 attack with his reaction, either from the servo harness or the free servo arm.

- 2 attacks during his turn via TWW, which could be from his hands or his servo harness.

Get Machinator array and the weapons could be any pistol or close combat weapon the Techmarine can use.

i find it funny people are trying to omph the SM already. They are power house with the basic rules you already want to make this class a HtH monster!

Lol, remember to tell us if they over shadow the Assault marine after that!

I wonder if the Land Speeders will be Req based also...

i find it funny people are trying to omph the SM already. They are power house with the basic rules you already want to make this class a HtH monster!

We have two problems with the Techmarine:

1 - The Devastator is a ranged focused class that gets swift attack. That means a Devastator gets the same number of melee attacks as a Techmarine, but the Devastator gets to keep his reaction.

2 - The servo harness seems designed to work with TWW. However, only assault marines get that.

Lol, remember to tell us if they over shadow the Assault marine after that!

Lets say that the Techmarine gets TWW and swift attack:

- The Assault Marine gets to make 4 melee attacks per round with two weapons.

- The Techmarine also gets to make 4 melee attacks a round. However he loses his reaction to do so. Unless he requisitions a jump pack, the Assault Marine will beat him to melee range.

Looking at this, giving the Techmarine Swift Attack might be a bit overpowered. But if he only gets TWW, the Assualt Marine should be able to outperform him in pure melee.

1 - The Devastator is a ranged focused class that gets swift attack. That means a Devastator gets the same number of melee attacks as a Techmarine, but the Devastator gets to keep his reaction.

Look at this the other way - the Techmarine can make a melee attack as a Reaction while still firing away at another target with a Full Auto Burst from his bolter. That's pretty useful. Consider too that a Storm Warden Techmarine can use Stalwart Defense and still put out an attack with the Servo-arm.

Swift attack in the sense of multiple attacks with a base melee weapon does not necessarily fit the techmarine. The Techmarine CAN make an attack with the servo arm as a standard attack but the servo arm can only attack once per round. The issue is the Techmarines are all about weaponized mechandrites and can't use more than one on a standard attack. All that needs to happen is give Techmarines some form of the multiple arms trait. Give them 2 attacks at first growing to 3 with the servo harness allowing for 4 total attacks IF they burn their reaction. (only 2 is possibly before servo harness because the one arm cannot attack twice so you cannot burn the reaction to attack unless you spent a full action doing something else like full auto fire)

Remember the servo harness has a Renown requirement of Famed and the talent itself Servo Harness Integration is a Rank 4 Talent (Same rank signature wargear artificer armor becomes available)

This definitely does not make Techmarines better at melee than an assault for example. This would give the techmarine his base melee attack, the servo arm, a plasma pistol, and a flamer as options with which to make attacks

Look at this the other way - the Techmarine can make a melee attack as a Reaction while still firing away at another target with a Full Auto Burst from his bolter . That's pretty useful.

Except that basic weapons can't be used in melee, so you should be talking about a semi-auto attack. Still useful, but not as much.

Consider too that a Storm Warden Techmarine can use Stalwart Defense and still put out an attack with the Servo-arm.

True. But as it requires spending a fate point to activate, and forces the Techmarine to remain stationary, he will have trouble with enemies that don't want to stay in melee range. So Stalwart Defence probably requires some playtesting to see how it interacts.

From the 5th edition space marine codex

Techmarine WS 4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD8 2+

so one base attack but

"Servo-Arm: Techmarines and Servitors are equipped with powerful servo-arms that can be used for battlefield repairs or even put to use as a weapon. Each Servo-Arm grants the model a single extra close combat attack, made separately"

This sort of covers the use reaction to make an attack I guess but..

"Servo-Harness: A servo-harness gives the Techmarine an extra Servo-arm(giving him 2 servo arm attacks) a plasma cutter (fired in the shooting phase as a twin linked plasma pistol but cannot be used in close combat) and a flamer. In the shooting phase the techmarine can shoot both harness mounted weapons or one harness mount and another gun"

This would seem pretty fair if it worked that way, 2 attacks without losing your reaction at first, then 3 melee attacks or 2 ranged attacks with servo harness