LordofBrewtown said:

So make it. Show us where FFG makes dollars and cents in this and remember that you are going to have to have someone pulling in a wage for time spent on this rather than on something else, which means any money generated by such a list, database, what have you does not just need to come in at the cost of the creation and maintenance of the thing, but it must be equal or ideally greater than what that person could be spending time doing.

You say it is Marketing 101 (it isn't by the way), but this evaluation is business 101. If you could hire some HS or college kid to come in and do all of this for the ridiculously low rate of $12 an hour (roughly what an asst admin should make an hour) that list needs to generate a positive return in excess of that since any given employee's time should be returning an investment about three to five times greater than their wages. That same individual doing data entry, office work, or database management for the company on the office side, or that money instead used as part of the salary of another graphic or game designer is going to, IMO, easily generate a higher revenue than the card list... Is there anyone who disagrees with that?

So then the question is, has anyone left a game or refused to play a game because there was no card list published by the company itself when said list was readily available from a third party?

With this question it becomes very easy to see that the majority of people come to a game and stay with a game based on the game play. Replicating effort with no obvious increase in profit is a very questionable business decision.

Penfold said:

Whoah. I didn't mean to argue that it was a revenue maker, moreso that any additional cost is really immaterial. Also, note that I was simply referring to a card list - NOT a searchable database. What would it take - 2 hours to just list what cards are available in which packs?

If you seriously want to see a simple business case showing this: Conservatively, 5 hours of admin time @ $12/hr = $60 cost. Heck, I'll throw in some kind of server/storage cost allocation @ $200 ( can't take up much more space than an FAQ), and round up to $300 annually to be even more conservative. That's a break even point of 20 extra chapter packs - IF your viewpoint is strictly that publishing a card list is a sales tool vs a customer service issue (which I don't think it is). Pretty low risk stuff.

Now maybe 20 people aren't likely to purchase if this was done, but don't you think someone might? Especially as this is supposed to be an LCG, not a CCG. For all the talk of how different and LCG is, I'm not sure I see FFG truly treating it differently (but I'll acknowledge I'm not on the inside, and they obviously know their business better than I do). Part of the concept of the shift to LCG was supposed to be that a new player wouldn't have to purchase a ton (or all) cards to get into the game. Doesn't it then follow that printing a list of cards by set/chapter pack would enable a new player to get in the game?

One of the other reasons given for the shift to the LCG format was to get more casual players (non-gamers and often non forum posters) to purchase the product. Do you really think they even know the fan sites exist? Heck, I've been playing this game since it first came out & I don't know anymore which fan site is up to date (they come and go just like many of the veteran players, as free time comes and goes).

dabbler is very up to date, i use it all the time http://agot.dbler.com/

card game data base is also very up to date, http://www.cardgamedb.com/ and also has a deck builder on it.

And this site it right now has cards that are not even out yet http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~szczesnj/index.php

LordofBrewtown said:

Would a casual gamer even really care though? I'd think truely casual gamers treat this much more like a board game with expansions than a CCG. They aren't going to be trying to uber tune a deck. I've got 2 of my good friends interested in the game recently and they are the definition of casual. They are video game players at heart but they have each bought core sets and a couple chapter packs/expansions. They don't come here to FFG's site or any of the fan sites. They don't really care to read spoilers and basically they just take the cards they own and try to build whatever they can with it.

Darksbane said:

I guess I'm kind of grouping the Martin fans in with the casual gamers. Thinking more from the standpoint that they would be more likely to want to use or collect favorite characters from the books & sculpt their collection that way as opposed to uber tuning a deck (as a lot of the readers favorite is Tyrion, doesn't it stand to reason they might want a Podrick, Bronn and/or Shae, but maybe they could care less about Greyjoys & Baratheons). In that respect, I'm thinking some casual gamers/'fanboys' would want to see a card list, and not even care so much about the cards abilities/stats. I think those kinds of players would be more likely to get a Core set, without much intent to get the chapter packs (expansions) - unless of course they know a favorite character is included.

It seems to me like the more serious gamers are going to purchase everything anyway.

Hmmm, never thought of it from that point of view, I could see where a list could be helpful with that. Although for those types of buyers a list of characters showing all the chapter packs they were in would be more useful.

I think that the fans would be much more likely to buy the myriad of other products available to own a piece of Westeros, the board game, Battles of Westeros, the art books and calendars all come to mind over the LCG.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a card list would not be a detriment in any way to the game, but it is also not a selling point of the game. Casual gamers are just that. A full list of all cards, stats, effects, etc. just doesn't match that. Anyone who wants that would need to do a search to find it in general on the site or on google and one of the fan sites will come up, giving them what they are looking for.

If someone here really feels that there needs to be an official one send an email to FFG support and ask. They may even have one they use in house... but there is is not much reason for them to produce or provide one if the community is already doing a bang up job, unless there are a number of requests asking for it.

I think LOB makes a persuasive case. Like him - I've been here from the get-go and I also have no idea what fan sites are up and current and what they do. The original poster gives us a concrete example fo a player who came looking for a product list and was frustrated. He isn't a theoretical "casual" player or "baordgamer" - he's an actual customer who was looking for a pretty basic resoruce and couldn't find it.

I do fault FFG for not getting such a list up and running a long time ago. Easy to create -easy to maintain - its a no brainer that they ought to provide.

That pretty basic resource can be found with a simple net search. or ask on the forums too. I only started playing last year, I had no trouble finding the sites and resources I needed for full spoilers that I wanted.

I'll agree ffg should update the links under support to add the current fan sites. But FFG does not need to do anything else. There are tons of great sites already up and running without FFG throwing their own hat into the ring.

Toqtamish said:

QFT

Penfold said:

I was actually also inclined to think this at one point. However, since the inception of this game (CCG days) to know, the local shops report that there are a number of people buying the cards who simply never show up for gaming nights - so the cards have some appeal to collectors fans/only. Now, perhaps those types will buy every chapter pack anyway. I don't know. I'm inclined to think that if you go to the many Martin fan sites, you'd find some fans who would be more tempted or likely to latch onto the game, if it were easier for them to get their favorite characters/cards first. I think this could be especially true if/when the HBO series debuts or a new novel comes out.

Penfold said:

FFG did print card checklists for roughly the first 3 years of the CCG, then stopped. They've been asked to ever since and have not.

As far as googling for fan sites or searching these forums - many casual players may go to the company web-site (especially if listed on the product instructions) to see what else they have, but will never enter a fan forum/message board. Likewise, the thought of googling for a 'fan site' is totally a gamer mentality - the concept of a fan site existing will simply never enter the mind of many casual players/non-gamers - it's a foreign concept to them.

Again, while I think a searchable database by card abilities, traits, text, etc would be great, that's really not what I expect from FFG (that's what fan sites are great for, and really does appeal more the serious gamers or "Jaime" types).

However, I would expect a simple card list by set with at least card title, type, house (and maybe ability).

The only thing I have to add is that FFG actively advertises the LCG model as being different from the CCG model because there is no blind purchasing. Christian Peterson, on BGG, pushed this point of view very strongly. He stated that you know what you're buying when you buy an LCG pack or expansion. This, to him, is a strong selling point. "Without the blind buy purchase model" is a phrase from their own LCG website.

The only problem is that we only know what's in a pack due to the efforts of people who don't work for FFG. If not for their efforts, we'd have no idea what's in the packs. In fact, the very first buyers are most likely buying blind if they get them before the fan sites are updated. It just seems disingenuous for FFG to push the "no blind buying" element of their LCG's without doing any work themselves to make that claim come true. If the fansites were to fold tomorrow, something FFG has no control over, that information would be much harder to find. If FFG wants to use no blind buying as a marketing tool, it's incumbent upon them to make sure that claim is, and always will be, accurate.

JeffK said:

Bingo!

JeffK said:

This is exactly what I am trying to point out. I get that a lot of you take it upon yourselves to google fansites, but its really not their job. Especially with the whole "blind buying" concept - which is what it appears is actually going down.

I like fansites as much as the next guy, but when I play a game with a customizble aspect I want to see what I am buying direct from the maker. I dont want to have to hunt around the net for a fansite to deliver that to me. Collectors of games don't want to have to do that either, since they dont play they have no need to go to a fansite.

I've played MTG, Star Wars, Star Trek, LotR competatively for years and I always take it upon myself to check to see what I am getting. The only time a ever really visited fan sites was for Trek because Decipher didnt have a keyword search like MTG's Gatherer, only the fansite did. I never had to look beyond the manufacturer's website for card lists (and spoilers).

FFG doesnt have to make a searchable databse (although it would be nice), but at least give a card/spoiler list for each set so that you know what you are buying.

If there are already fan sites that contain the database how about FFG simply provides a webpage that is easy to access from the Home Page that has links to all the fansites. Then just have a Card Database Links tab to the Game of Thrones homepage and there you go, problem solved.

This would literally take less than 1 Hour for a professional web designer and only a few hours for a complete HTML novice to learn how to do so it is literally no cost to FFG.

Right so all they need to do is update the links under the support tab as the database linked there no longer exsits, Tizianos(sp?) old site.

LordofBrewtown said:

Or maybe they are casual players who buy a core set and leave it at that. Sit at home with their SO or roomates, or in their college dorm with school mates and play it like a boxed set. I've run into far more people who do this than those who say they buy just because they collect... I mean, what is the point of collecting if you are not going to own one of everything. There is no secondary market worth noting here so it isn't about having copies of some chase rare are any kind of investment. I'm not saying you are wrong, about why people in may purchase a set and never show up, I'm just saying I know of only one person who has done this versus that dozens of posts here and on BGG each that say they have bought a core set for casual play and have no interest in deck building.

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I did send this conversation on to one of the developers. The response... "Hm. Well if I can find the time I'll see what I can do." There are what two developers for this game? Three for the LCG line covering four games? Maybe they'll get an intern on it. Personally I'd rather get a new set or a card of the week every week, but I don't really qualify as a "casual gamer" as is indicated by my very presence here (let alone knowing how to get a hold of a developer).

Regarding the blind purchase model though... I always took that differently, that I never had to guess whether or not any given card in the released set would be in my box. I was getting everything with that one purchase. It simply never occurred to me that they meant that I would know each individual card prior to the set being purchased.