They don't have card lists in the product description page, and/or visual spoilers. I seriously want to get into this game, but FF is not making things easy for me. I mean, I want to buy chapter packs, but without text & visual spoilers, and card lists for for the core sets and expansions - how am I supposed to know exactly what I want to buy or how am I supposed to be competative?

Take MTG for example... On their website they have this thing called "gatherer", in which you can look at any card in the game. You can also do searches for keywords, rules, etc. You can also print up card lists, and such.

How hard could it possibly be to accomplish this?

There are several sites that has visual/text spoilers:

http://agot.dbler.com/

http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~szczesnj/

http://www.cardgamedb.com/

and there is a complete OCTGN2 plugin updated to play all the cards online:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=215850

So I don't see the situation so tragic as you wrote :-)

That is all well and good - but he is right. There really should be some sort of card database right here on the site - tough to expect new players to go haring off to fan sites before they have even decided whetehr or not this game is for them. i know I wouldn't have done that.

His request is not unreasonable.

Well, Gualdo didn't say "unreasonable".

At least FFG could update Fan Sites at support page:

Tzumainn's AGoT Page
The NYC Meta

A quick google search could have found any of the number of card sites we have. I really think we are quite spoiled with the number of sites we have available.

I've seen some of the fan pages, but it shouldn't be the fans that are doing something of that nature. The gaming company that sells the product should have some kind of thing like this. I've played a lot of TCG's, CCG's and such over the years and everyone one of those games had online card lists, virtual representations, and/or databases of the cards. Mind you some people did go out of there way to make even better versions of what the company put on their website, I can't believe that FFis relying on fans to make that up...

I dont see it as tragic, but you should not have to search around the web for something that should be directly placed on a specific products page on the site that makes it.

It should be noted, this is an LCG and not a CCG or TCG. If you come to this or their others with the same expectations of a company that is bilking you and has all that extra cash to toss around for database developers and the like then you are going to be disappointed. If you come here expecting a bunch of ridiculously fun games that require a small investment for countless hours of enjoyment, and a company that really spends it time on producing the games and letting the fans decide the context in which they are played and how involved they want to be, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Fantasy Flight has the rules for the game, an FAQs document, and two mini-decks that you can print off yourself to give the game a try before you play. I don't feel like we're that badly off.

also, if they made too much stuff available, what's to stop people just running with the print-and-play idea, and never buying any of the products?

I think I spent about a day on the forum (before my core set had even arrived in the post) before someone directed me to Dabbler, there's plenty of information out there, and plenty of help finding it.

Lord_Burke81 said:

If you are just starting the game I suggest you just buy the core set and perhaps the Stark and Baratheon expansions. Why worry about what is in the other stuff before you know if you even like the game or not?

As far as the difficulty of FFG doing it I'd say it wouldn't be difficult, but it wouldn't be cheap. They might have a full time web developer on staff but if not they'd have to contract out for something of this nature. I charge, depending on the project, anywhere from $60 to $120 an hour and with a project like Magic's card database, you'd need general design, input pages, display pages, database design for cards/sets/rulings/comments/users, user management, SEO, card rating, comments pages, AJAX type ahead, data entry, etc. To do all that from scratch you'd be looking at a few weeks of work would be my guess, perhaps more. FFG isn't a huge company so from a business perspective a card database would be very unlikely to provide an increase in sales and so would never provide a ROI to justify its costs, especally when you have multiple fansites who already provide the information and do it for the low low cost of free.

Consider also that this is not a collectible game. The comparison to the way M:tG does things is probably not particularly relevant. Do other companies do complete card databases, searchable or otherwise, for their board games and non-collectible card games? For example, I've never heard of a complete list of Munchkin cards, including individual card text, maintained by Steve Jackson.

FFG is (primarily) a board game company. Particularly given the LCG model, it is probably more appropriate to compare them to other board game companies.

ktom said:

I don't think that analogy is quite accurate. An LCG is much closer to a CCG than it is to a board game because of the customization aspect. That's the reason why players need to know "what's out there." Players must have full knowledge of the card base so that they can properly pre-assemble decks before playing. That's the whole point of a C(ustomizable)CG.

I think FFG should provide links on the official website to the various fan-made card databases. The work's already done by the fans so it doesn't make sense for a smaller company like FFG to try to recreate that effort. They should, however, use official channels to make players aware of the sites.

TempestTenor said:

The point isn't what the game is similar to; it is what the company is similar to. The questions is not "is AGoT more like M:tG or Killer Bunnies and the Quest for the Magic Carrot?"; it's "is FFG more like Wizards of the Coast or Playroom Entertainment?" (Chez Geek/Steve Jackson Games may be the better comparison than Bunnies/Playroom, but you get the point).

Also with all of these great fan made sites if FFG was to all of a sudden create a full card database it would be kind of a slap in the face to the creators of the sites and all the work they have put in to it. A simple updates of the links under support is all that is needed.

ktom said:

I disagree. The point is what the game is similar to. There's not a tremendous amount of utility is listing all of the cards in the Munchkin decks because you never buy a Munchkin deck looking for a specific card or cards. You're buying the deck to be used as a whole unit.

LCG's are like CCG's, as TempestTenor pointed out. And I really don't care what OTHER games FFG is making when it comes to how they support THIS game. If hosting a database of all of the cards in each expansion is good for the game, they should do it. I fail to see how their other games have anything to do with that question.

Imagine a CCG player looking to transition to LCG's. They want to find a card database hosted by FFG and are told "Well, most of FFG's OTHER games are boardgames so you shouldn't expect them to do that for their LCG's." Is that answer going to make any sense to the prospective LCG player? At all?

You're still missing my point. I'm making no judgement about whether FFG should or should not maintain full spoiler lists. I'm saying that as a company that primarily deals with board games, they may not be equipped to support an LCG the way a CCG-centric company supports a CCGs. It's not about whether or not the game would benefit; it's about the resources FFG probably has at their disposal. AGoT is a fairly small part of FFGs catalog and bottom line - certainly a much smaller part of the company than M:tG is in relation to Wizards of the Coast. Expecting FFG to give AGoT the same treatment as WoC gives M:tG is unrealistic from that point of view. In fact, when AGoT was a CCG and both the community and the company tried to treat it the way CCG companies treat their CCGs, the game came pretty close to collapse.

It's also important to keep in mind that as a company that knows and works with the board game playing community much more than the CCG playing community, "a CCG player looking to transition to LCGs" is a minority audience/market for FFG. Their bread and butter are the board game and fixed card game players looking to transition to LCGs.

I don't know about AGoT, but I remember reading a c-level manager's posting that clearly indicated that LCGs are one of 3 pillars of FFG's product library (other two understandably being boardgames and RPGs).

FFG may still be, and will continue to be at least in the near future, boardgame centric; however, the company may no longer perceive LCG games as small potatoes.

I find it hard to believe that FFG would lack the resources to create a simple online card database. They just aren't that hard to create for someone with moderate coding skills. A flat file, searchable database is pretty basic. (Yes, I made a web based one myself several years ago using javascript and Microsoft Access that included images, so I do have some idea of what I'm talking about). Hell, with basic HTML skills you could just publish a list of contents for the core set expansions and link them to card images. THAT'S absurdly simple. Even I could do it. All it would take is some time to set up, and not even that much of it (especially the basic list). Maintaining it would be easy, with only 20 cards a month added plus the twice a year 55 card expansion. What are the resources you imagine that FFG would be lacking to get this done?

Also, there's not a strict divide between boardgamers and CCG players. There are plenty of boardgamers who are either previous CCG players looking to get into the LCG's because they prefer the distribution model. On top of that, many boardgamers are well aware of CCG's and have at least looked into games like Magic enough to know what's out there. The scenario I envisioned is far from unilkely (in fact - it happened! Note the existence of this thread).

I dont' think anyone thinks they lack the resources, all anything ever takes is time and money. I'm just saying that from a business perspective what do they stand to gain by devoting employee time and company money to something which will pretty much provide no return on investment. From a player perspective which would you rather them put time and money into, a card database which already exist in multiple forms or instead use that money and time to provide further expansions to their already impressive game line. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, but I can see why they dont.

As for it being easy, that still doesn't mean cheap or quick, and I don't see anyone here jumping at the chance to actually do the work for FFG for free.

The point about FFG not being the type of company to create decklists is very flawed. If you're a type A company creating a type B product, you better be prepared to support your type B product. If your company is not prepared to support this new kind of product, then you have no business delving into it.

And besides...everybody missed the other point in my post. It indeed does not make sense for FFG to create its own database since a bunch of great fanmade sites already exist. FFG should provide links to those sites from the official AGoT site.

I don't understand why spending the money on something like this would be such a big deal either. They are making a nice wad of cash on their games, and come 2011, Game of Thrones should be a household name like True Blood thus ramping up advertising and in come the dollars...

Lord_Burke81 said:

Thats all well and good but the need for one does not exist. There already are several, FFG making one would be just another site. A bunch of fan created ones already exist. There is no hole that would be filled by FFG creating another one. The fan made ones deserve our support and they are all very well done.

Darksbane said:

I think that a strong case could be made that FFG would gain sales if they at least had card lists (even if they didn't have a searchable database). So, I don't believe that FFG has nothing to gain. Nor would at least publishing a list of every card in every deck be costly. Isn't someone far more likely to purchase chapter packs if they know what's included? FFG is basically taking the position that we're less likely to purchase if we know what's in them, and we'll justcave and buy one regardless. I love this game; but personally, I wait until I've seen spoilers on the web site or a friend has purchased before I ever buy now.

This really seems like Marketing 101 to me. Can you imagine a company in any other industry that would not tell you what they are selling? What if Kellog's just had boxes of cereal marked A, B, C, D and you had to purchase one before you knew if Fruit Loops or Corn Flakes was in box A? Or if GM or Ford didn't tell you if anti-lock brakes or a CD player were included in the car you were going to buy?

The fact that FFG doesn't at least publish a card list by pack is simply indefensible.

I still don't think that it would generate very many extra sales, but I don't disagree either.

I just took a look at other long running and/or popular CCGs out and there are quite a few which don't provide full card lists/Spoilers/Database

Legend of the 5 Rings just seems to have occasional card previews couldn't find any full lists anywhere on AEG's site

Warlord (under AEG and Pheonix Interactive) have nothing official, a fan site handles it.

In fact AEG doesn't seem to ever provide lists or spoilers that I can tell

Warcraft under Cryptozoic I can't find anything but previews. Only full set lists I saw were on fan sites.

Yugioh under Konami after alot of searching has a text list of cards for each set, couldn't find spoilers or images on main site.

UDE's current CCG's don't seem to have any information. Although that could just be because UDE has been putting themselves through so much crap with their Yugioh debacle.

Pokemon and Magic both have full card databases

Unless I've missed things on these companies websites, which is possible, I'd say FFG is hardly out of the mainstream for their industry by not providing a database/spoiler or even card list. Only the 2 biggest card game companies have anything like official databases. All the other companies, which are the ones closer to FFG's size, provide very little through official channels.

Having been a former long time L5R player, you are correct Darksbane, all fan based. Main one is l5r search. Same with Warlord, and alot of other ccg's I have played/collect, which I am afraid to admit is almost every one that has been out there. lol.