Has anyone done this yet - converted the requisition mechanic and the psychic powers from RT/DW?

the people with whom I've played with, their #1 "take them out of the drama" complaint in DH is having to buy stuff when they are supposed to work for the Inquisition, and well, Requisition seems at first blush to be an awesome compromise.

and converting the DH psychic powers to that found in RT/DW, well, that seems to be the single element missing to "unify" all the systems together.

Cheers,

J.

jman5000 said:

I can say to start off I also thought the purchase concept in DH was asanine - I work for the inquisition and they don't give me my gear?? But then I looked more closely and it seems that, well, the Inquisition doesn't really care about you, especially when you start out. You start with standard kit, and some of it can be quite good (lasgun and guard flack is amazing at low levels), but you basically have to prove your worth to them. At higher leves (ascention) I think they do have sort of a requestion system, but it's more 'influence.' As an important person in the Inquisition you simply convince people to let you have your gear.

If the core system doesn't work for you for whatever reason, I personally would simply give the group petty cash for missions- let them spend it to buy what they need, and save the rest. Not worry about renown (which is what unlocks the more powerful items) earned over the course of missions or the requisition cost of 'inferior' civilian weapons that DH characters have access too. I'd just figure out the ballpark of what you think they will need and allow them to purchase or borrow that type of equipment.

As for psychic powers, I'm not sure that people converted them, as my understanding is DH psykers are just 'sanctioned psykers' and are scary as hell because they're dangerous, while RT psykers are more like astropaths and the like, while DW psykers are librarians, which are highly trained and given lessons in how to not let daemons into the world. I find the 'roll 9 and you're f'd' system a little flawed and would probably tweak it some if I ran DH again in the future, but the core system seems to work okay to me.

Probably not much help, I'm afraid. Apologies.

I wouldn't use the Requisition system, myself. Inquisitorial acolytes are not part of a "military" organization, exactly. Here's what I did:

At Ranks 1-3, they pretty much had to rely on what they could buy/steal/loot. At Ranks 4-6, I supplemented that with monetary rewards for successful missions, and whatever they could convince their Inquisitor they really needed. Now, at Rank 7, I have given them their own Influence (as per Ascension), roughly one-third of their Inquisitor's Influence, backed up by their own Rosettes. Of course, it has been made abundantly clear to them that any perceived abuse of this newfound authority will result in it being revoked (along with other possible consequences). And also, it won't help them much if they are trying to work covertly. But it won't be long before they are ascended, at which point they will have a bit more to work with.

As to the Psychic Powers rules: I started out using kind of a hybrid between DH and RT, with the Fettered, Unfettered, and Push rules. But I realized that in RT, and now in Deathwatch, the reason RT psykers can control their powers so well is because they are Astropaths (Soul-bound to the Emperor), and DW Librarians, well they are Librarians. DH psykers don't learn that amount of control until they are ascended. As Charmander said, Sanctioned Psykers are DANGEROUS! That's why, unless they are working for the Inquisition, or have gone rogue, they have minders - people assigned to watch them, and put a bullet in their head, at the first sign of "Oops!" So I went back to regular DH rules, until such time as they reach ascension.

Just my two cents.

Sister Cat said:

I really like the idea of the system you lay out here, teach them to fish, make them earn their way, and grow from 'first level' onward.

yeah. that is a pretty good system for the distribution of Thrones. thanks for sharing!

Cheers,

J.

Charmander said:

Well, I'm glad you like it. But ... it may not be as brilliant as you imagine. I didn't start out intending to do things that way. But early on in the campaign, I found that (just like in all the other games my group plays) my players are unashamed thugs. They spent more time and energy figuring out how to come up with more and better loot than they did investigating and purging heretics. So, I came up with the "we'll pay you for a job well-done" shtick. That helped, but still didn't completely solve the problem. So by the time I came up with the idea to give them their own rosettes, they were high Rank 6 and low Rank 7, so I didn't feel too bad about giving them such pull. But looking back, it does seem that it worked out fairly well in the end.

@jman5000: You're welcome. Hope it helped.

As far as the Psykers thing, in DH, it just takes away some of the grimdark if they can just fling around pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, without risking Phenomena or Perils. JMHO.

Sister Cat said:

Horse-pucky! That's nothing but a rule-appologist arguement trying to excuse the difference in the rules and one which completely ignores the Warhammer 40K background.

In "reality" there are three tiers of psykers: sanctioned (or primary) psykers, astropaths and sacrifices. Sacrifices are those psykers who lack the will to hold out against the dangers of their powers. They are the ones feed to the Emperor or shot while on the Black Ships. Astropaths are stronger, but lack the will to protect themselves. So they are soul-bound to Emperor to protect them from the Warp. Sanctioned Psykers are those whose will is powerful enough to resist the Warp on their own , without need for soul-binding. It is from this top tier that Inquisitors, Librarians and battle-field psykers are drawn.... and it is from this tier that DH psykers belong.

I found the "Influence"system is a better mechanic for acolytes after about rank 3-4 as its sort of a running tally of who likes them, who hates them and Warhammer 40k 'where there is only war' isn't Shopping Mall 20k ''where there is only consumerism'. Don't give them a lot of influence for what its worth, start them off low and adjust for social standing (scum/nobility/nobodies etc) and it encourages some background contacts in character generation.

As for psy powers, the Ascension system isn't a bad one either, I brought that in 6th rank.

LuciusT said:

Hi Lucius.

I'll grant your second point. But as to the rule-apologist thing ... meh, not so much. I just want them to have to think very hard about where and when they use those powers. Taking away the risk strips some of the grimdark from the game ... at least for my game. My players would go around flinging psychic powers at the of a hat. I want there to be some risk, so they either stop to think, or eventually they pay for it.

But just one clarification. Those top tier battle-field psykers are exactly the ones who have the minders I was talking about.

Sister Cat said:

See, I just don't get that.

When you play a Guardsman or an Assassin, you expect to be able to beat the snot out of the enemy, or blow them with a really big gun. When you play an Adept, you expect to play the guy with the brains who knows everything about everything. When you play a Tech Priest, you are the go to guy for techno-mystical problems. No one has a problem with any of that.When you play a psyker, everyone seems to want to prevent you from using the abilities that make a psyker a psyker! What defines a psyker is psychic powers. If you choose to play a psyker, you should be able to use your psyker powers the same way a guardsman is able to use his lasgun. If psykers can't do that because it would make them "unbalanced" than, IMO, the rules are bad.

Sister Cat said:

See, personally, I don't see the risk as the key element; for me, it's the interaction of risk and reward. The risk inherent in a Psyker's powers should be proportionate to the effect he desires to create, which I feel the Fettered/Unfettered/Push system as it appears in Rogue Trader and Deathwatch (as opposed to the IMO incomplete attempt to translate it to Dark Heresy in Ascension - a key part of that system, IMO, is power scaling by Psy Rating) produces the desired results more often. Just making their powers risky doesn't work - it simply forces the player to be more cunning about how they squeeze out the power they want - so there needs to be a clear and direct link between risk taken and power achieved, which I don't feel that Dark Heresy adequately provides.

LuciusT said:

While I understand your stance, and on some level agree with it ... I also have an issue (yes, it's just me, apparently ) with Psykers being able to do all sorts of things that no one else can do, without some kind of check and balance system, some sort of consequence to reward ratio that will make them decide to ... at least be careful and circumspect ... except in the most dire situations. Let's face it. Psykers can allow acolyte teams to bypass all sorts of investigative plots, and even bypass -easily - what should be challenging combat encounters, without having to stop and think, to work for their successes, without having to use tactics. I guess that just bothers me, on some personal level. I just like to keep a certain level of uncertainty in my games that allowing the Fettered/Unfettered/Push rules into regular Dark Heresy would ... at least with my group ... eliminate.

I know that by canon/lore/fluff, that's probably wrong. But it makes for a better game for me and my players. They have to decide if the risk is worth the gain. And ... as I've said before, once they reach Ascension (which won't be long now), they will have options to eliminate that uncertainty.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Again, I agree completely. All I'm saying is that with my players, there needs to be that extra level of (granted, non-canonical) risk. Otherwise I'm looking at completely unabashed use of Psychic Powers that would create a non-challenging mission for the players. My players want to feel supremely challenged at all times - even though they go out of their way to min/max and otherwise beat the system. So ... this is my way of ensuring that they can't I'm not "challenging" them.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Again, I agree completely. All I'm saying is that with my players, there needs to be that extra level of (granted, non-canonical) risk. Otherwise I'm looking at completely unabashed use of Psychic Powers that would create a non-challenging mission for the players. My players want to feel supremely challenged at all times - even though they go out of their way to min/max and otherwise beat the system. So ... this is my way of ensuring that they can't say that I'm not "challenging" them.

Sister Cat said:

Please don't take this personally, but that's not a problem with psykers. That's a problem with the adventure design.

I remember back in the early days of D&D 3E, when the game designers were discussing the reasons behind some of the decisions they had made while making the new edition. One thing they said that stuck with me was the extent to which previous edition adventures had tried to block or prevent spells like Speak with the Dead, because those spells "bypassed" the mystery. The designers felt that was wrong. Instead, they thought, the mystery should take into account those abilities and allow for them, even encourage them. Instead of finding ways to prevent the PCs to from talking to the spirit of murder victim, they decided to have the spirit of the murder victim able to provide important (but not totally revealing) clues.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you have a Telepath in your group don't think of Mind Reading as a way from her to bypass the investigation. Intead, think of the kind of important clues she can only get by using it. If the Pyromancer in your group is blowing through the combat encounters too easily, up the stakes to make the encounter actually challenging (maybe set a fight in a foundry where the cultists are all wearing vulcanis shrouds).

Rather then looking at psychic powers as a horrible burden you, as GM, need to avoid, look at them as a part of your groups abilities and find ways to integrate them more fulling into the adventure.

No offense taken, I can see that as good advice. Same thing I did with D&D games. It's just ... I don't know, really. Rampant use of Psychic powers without consequence in DH, just seems wrong to me somehow. It doesn't feel right ... at least not to me.

Well for me at least, the endless, non-stop, game slowing, extra dice rolling screw-ups for perils of the warp got really damned annoying before it ever became interesting or remotely funny. Especially when the psyker was mostly just chucking 2-3 dice for often minor or entry level powers. So as soon as I saw the Ascension system of Fettered/Unfettered/Push I was sold and it works.

If the psyker wants to be restrained for doing something completely mundane without any stress, they can and get very little effect, if they want to take a chance for possibly more bang, they can and if they want to get their **** torn apart in a 100% guaranteed soul rending experience trying to blow up the world... then they can do that too.

LuciusT said:

The balancing factor to "they can do stuff no other can" kind of magic in D&D has been limitation per day.

Bad enough that psykers get access to more skills and talents than any other career. But when you allow them to cast that invisibility or Divine Shot or heal spell (and sustaining a few more) without restraint you break the system. Your other players will not appreciate that a psyker can use spells to do stuff they can't do and beat them in their own fields of specialization too (be it damage, survivability, stealth, knowledge or investigation). Unless you want an all-psykers game.

That is definitely a problem with psykers. Adventure design will not fix that. I'm fully aware that psykers are described as stronger in the W40K universe but this is a game and not many want to play the gimp in Superman's party.

Sister Cat said:

Well that's why, if you're going to use the RT system in DH you actually have to use the RT system. RT scales the effects of using psychic powers around who much risk you take to use the power. The "variables" around range and effect are based on the psy rating used when the power is manifest. Fettered powers are perfectly safe, but weaker. Unfettered are somewhat risky, but stonger. Pushed powers can be massively powerful, but extremely risky.

So, rampant use of fettered powers... the consequence is that your powers are weaker and correspondingly less effective. Rampant use of unfettered powers is the same as the DH core. Rampant use of pushed powers... boom! But 'boom!' isn't the only consequence possible for psychic powers.

Chester said:

You are right, that is a problem with the rules. However, psychic powers, under the RT rules , cost experience points. You don't get any for free. That means psykers have to choose between buying psychic power and buying other talents, skills or characteristic advances. That means that, under the RT rules, psykers can't be as good as everybody else and have psychic powers too. Moreover, the more impressive powers cost more and are only available a higher ranks. That's another reason why I strongly advocate using the RT psychic rules in preference to the DH rules.

LuciusT said:

Really like your post about adventure design too, spot on.

Nihilius said:

Agreed. I do have RT, but what about the powers available in DH that are not available in RT (at least so far)? And what about players who may not have both core rulebooks? I know, I know ... I could copy the rules from RT into some form of document to give to the psyker-player. And ... I could house-rule the powers that aren't covered in RT, again handing out a document with those changes. But ... what if I, as a GM, would rather spend my time coming up with engaging and fun sessions, assuming I don't have a lot of time to do all those things? And what if I don't want to have to carry my RT core book to my DH game?

Don't get me wrong, Lucius. I like the RT rules for Psychic Powers as well, which is why I started out using a hybrid version of them. But ... and this is just my opinion on it ... I want my DH players (at least until they are ascended) to have to stop and think if they really want to risk using all those nifty powers. And I don't want them to ever think that any action they take is without possible consequence. To me, this maintains the "grimdark" of 40K. Once those characters become ascended, they have options to allow them to use the RT system, sort of ... at which point, I may require them to use the RT system in total ... and will make the time to convert anything for DH that hasn't yet been presented in RT (which would eliminate many of the "Psyker is OP" problems). I know you and others may disagree ... and that's fine. This is just the best compromise I could come up with in my games. But I have no animosity for others who may have another take on it.

So, the best solution for me - and my games - was to stick to DH psychic power rules, until such time as the characters are ascended. But for those that have a different take on things, I believe that the pure RT rules are a great alternative ... if the GM is willing to do the work necessary to make all the options compatible.

Ive read all the posts here on this one and went through a similar issue as sister cat did with her group the first time i allowed a psyker PC. i modified the rules from DH to fit the deal with some of the ideas i garnered from reading the forums from here. My solution to it...

1) power well and the discipline mastery abilities...both grant you automatic points towards manifesting abilities. When coupled with a high Willpower score allows your PC to manifest ALL minor abilities and some of the discipline abilities without roll needed ( your roll starts with your Willpower base number plus any points for power well and ( when applicable) discipline mastery,,,without the need for a actual roll if the number is already met...no risk period

2) Getting the above mentioned abilities takes time and levels.....scaling the potentials dramatically and keeping unruly PCs in check...

3) favored of the warp....grants you reroll of 9's rolled...that ability in itself is VERY powerful for overcoming perils potential..

4) Alternatively you can have your PC take the option to be able to either reroll 9's once for every point of Willpower bonus per day to avoid them ( but if they want to go around flinging powers left and right they WILL quickly run out of this option..so it is something of a balance between not having one and favored of warp ability ( which doesnt have max uses per day )

Personally i tend to work within #1 , #2, and #4...i try to discourage or disallow favored of warp ability instead using the willpower bonus # as max times per day a PC psyker can "cheat" the warp; which, in effect gives them a limit on how often daily they can use their abilities before running the risk of perils. I give each sanctioned psyker #4 automatically from level 1 ( as an encouragement to use and develop minor abilities ) The bottom line is that ALL psykers are the equivalent of specialist characters ( each discipline area is seriously limited in its scope of influence when compared to other powers in other games for instance )...a Biomancer for instance has poor to nonexistent long ranged attacks compared to a pyromancer...also a bio cant flashfry a entire room like a pyro can...each discipline is suited for specific roles within any group to augment the group....but they all have limitations..( want to nulify a pyro...try a waterplanet or very high humidity area...no spark no flame...no flame.....worthless pyro who then has to rely on his regular abilities and his allies to protect them...want to nulify a force user...a small lander on them when they are in a cargo bay or some similar large very heavy object....or render it pitch black so they cant see to focus their abilities ( you have to SEE your target to attack it with psy abilities )...Simple creativity...i let my players challenge my ability to GM the game...it makes it fun for me as well that way as i have to use my creativity to offset any devious positioning on their part...i grow and learn as a GM as a result of it and the players have fun and are encouraged to be creative and play in character more often as a result of it. ( yes i do give enhanced XP rewards for playing in character and for clever ideas ).....Just my 2 cents though..