Well, I was thinking more that they would have to have increased penetration, rather than damage. As you say, the damage does seem to have been balanced so that it is normally survivable, at least for a couple of rounds, and unless you were going to change the style of game entirely (from "gritty heroic" to "realistic") you would want to preserve that balance.
Why are these boltguns better?
borithan said:
... and unless you were going to change the style of game entirely (from "gritty heroic" to "realistic") you would want to preserve that balance.
Of course, you are correct about the intent/design of the rules. Somewhat amusingly I had once looked at a more direct conversion of Dark Heresy to my system of choice, and to reflect this "gritty heroic" you basically had to load up the characters with "mystical energy regenerating ablative armour," amongst other things. Heh. I guess that's one of the reasons that the system rubs me the wrong way: the problems vis-a-vis realism.
Of course, that's only really a problem on the individual level, so once again it is more observation than criticism.
Kage
borithan said:
Kage2020 said:
Perhaps the question is what would the statistics be for their wishful bolter that is somewhere in between that presented for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch ? And how would that effect the "brick" of a MArnie with all their Unnatural Attributes?
Kage
Well, I personally am coming to find 2d10 for all bolters an appealing idea. Of course this would probably mean most weapons would need to be examined and changed....
I don't think there was ever any explained justification for it, just they wanted a system which would allow more advanced weapons to penetrate older armour without inflating more high tech armour's rating into the stratosphere.
The problem isn't the unnatural toughness. The problem is overcoming the combination of armour, unnatural toughness and True Grit in order to deal a Marine a fatal blow. If you only nerf Bolter damage you run the risk of ending up with Marines with many light critical wounds but far from being dead.
You can do it though if you increase Pen to compensate for any loss of damage against Marines. Other than that I advise against it.
Alex
Critical Damage adds up. If a marine is at 0 wounds and takes two attacks for 2 damage (after T/AB and all other modifiers) each, he takes 2 critical hits. One for 2 and one for 4, regardless if they are on the same area or not. You do not track each location separately.
Ex.
Said marine hit with a bolter would be knocked back 1d10m, taking a lvl of fatigue per meter. If he strikes a solid object he takes an additional 1d5 levels of fatigue from the lvl 2 crit to the body. If the second round hit the head, he would be knocked prone, stunned for 1 round and take 2 further levels of fatigue.
If he then took 3 dmg to the arm, he would look at lvl 7 on the arm chart and see that his arm was blown off, requiring a toughness test to avoid death, taking a bunch of crap if he passes, and probably falling unconcious.
ak-73 said:
I'll try to explain to you this way: would Dermal Plating (as known from games like Shadowrun) be considered as primitive armour?
Got it?
Alex
Oh I understood your point in your initial statement of "black carapace" I was just throwing out two words at you with no explanation as to why, just like you did.
And if you are using Black Carapace as an explanation for Unnatural Toughness X2 when the game already has Dermal Armour in the cybernetics section (or at least Rogue Trader does), then I would say "no Black Carapace defined as Dermal Armour is not Primitive. Its +2AP, but not Unnatural Toughness."
Radomo said:
Critical Damage adds up. If a marine is at 0 wounds and takes two attacks for 2 damage (after T/AB and all other modifiers) each, he takes 2 critical hits. One for 2 and one for 4, regardless if they are on the same area or not. You do not track each location separately.
Ex.
Said marine hit with a bolter would be knocked back 1d10m, taking a lvl of fatigue per meter. If he strikes a solid object he takes an additional 1d5 levels of fatigue from the lvl 2 crit to the body. If the second round hit the head, he would be knocked prone, stunned for 1 round and take 2 further levels of fatigue.
If he then took 3 dmg to the arm, he would look at lvl 7 on the arm chart and see that his arm was blown off, requiring a toughness test to avoid death, taking a bunch of crap if he passes, and probably falling unconcious.
!
You're right. I've been playing it wrong. Perhaps because it seemed natural this way.
Alex
ak-73 said:
!
You're right. I've been playing it wrong. Perhaps because it seemed natural this way.
That threw me as well. Back in WFRP 1e/2e crits did not add together like that. Once you were at 0, you just continued to take crits as if you were at 0. It does help speed things up, especially when you are a lowly DH character trying to take out an orc (who also has Unnatural Toughness and True Grit) with a chainsword.
I'm not sure it would have been an optimum decision to make Marines naff enough to satisfy someone who thinks they should be removed from the setting.
I'm gonna be radical here, and suggest that a Space Marine roleplaying game should be written to make Marines as attractive to Marine fans a possible. And Deathwatch could go a lot further in making Marines awesome.
(I ponder peacekeeper_bs ideal Spite Game, designed to turn as many people off Marines as possible.)
AluminiumWolf said:
(I ponder peacekeeper_bs ideal Spite Game, designed to turn as many people off Marines as possible.)
And I ponder what the heck you are talking about?
My reference to removing space marines from the setting was not only in a different thread, but a board for Rogue Trader. And this thread is entirely about rebalancing the damage from bolters.
And, my previous notion of removing space marines from the setting was a comment on another posters comment about removing orks from teh setting, where I simply said it would be easier to remove space marines, mainly becasue so few have encounters with them as it is.
Why would i want to remove Space Marines from Deathwatch? You are sounding quite daff there mate.
I have no desire to turn anyone off space marines. I desire a fair system that doesnt just add ooompf to space marines simply because the "are the awesome" or becasue they are on the cover or because the lead designer has a bunch of space marine novels and miniatures.
And I agree, Space Marine sshould appeal to Space Marine fans (and non fans alike). But the game should be about the space marines, not the space marine bolter.
Peacekeeper_b said:
I desire a fair system that doesnt just add ooompf to space marines simply because the "are the awesome" or becasue they are on the cover or because the lead designer has a bunch of space marine novels and miniatures.
Well I disagree. What I am looking for in my Marine game is a 400 page love letter to the awesomeness of Space Marines.
Viewed by that lense Deathwatch comes well short. And trying to hammer down the few nifty things they do get (more awesome marine weapons and unnatural characteristics) is Entirely Backwards.
AluminiumWolf said:
Peacekeeper_b said:
I desire a fair system that doesnt just add ooompf to space marines simply because the "are the awesome" or becasue they are on the cover or because the lead designer has a bunch of space marine novels and miniatures.
Well I disagree. What I am looking for in my Marine game is a 400 page love letter to the awesomeness of Space Marines.
Viewed by that lense Deathwatch comes well short. And trying to hammer down the few nifty things they do get (more awesome marine weapons and unnatural characteristics) is Entirely Backwards.
That's okay because, well, I disagree with you. I feel that Marines are awesome enough and that the tiered approach to the setting has created some odd issues with scaling up to and including the inconsistent application of "Astartes Grade" weaponry. Then again, perhaps I'm a minimalist. I think that Marines were pretty awesome enough in Purge the Unclean , and that while there are some very welcome additions with regards to power armour, the sheer amount of "buffing" due to the purported awesomeness of Marines was not overtly welcome.
Of course, with that said I'm also a huge fan of modularity and being able to make choices as to how awesome, or maybe just how cinematic, something should be. That's not a surprise, though, given my system of choice and in no way impugns Deathwatch and merely recognises preference. On the other hand, one might point out that even when not associated with those that might be referred to as "nay sayers," there are an awful lot of threads about "fixing this" or "fixing that," and many of them are common to multiple hobbyist boards across the Internet.
Make of that what you will.
Kage
Kage2020 said:
...there are an awful lot of threads about "fixing this" or "fixing that," and many of them are common to multiple hobbyist boards across the Internet.
Make of that what you will.
Kage
People really like sticking their finger in the pot and claiming it as theirs.
I submit that anyone who thinks Deathwatch was written by Marine fanboys has never met a Marine fanboy.
And there is no such thing as Awesome Enough.
AluminiumWolf said:
I submit that anyone who thinks Deathwatch was written by Marine fanboys has never met a Marine fanboy.
And there is no such thing as Awesome Enough.
Well I submit otherwise. Ive met them, numerous times. Conventions, game stores, my friends. In fact, they are not that rare at all.
But each their own.
I'm just saying, if you think Deathwatch is bad you should count your lucky stars that someone who REALLY likes Space Marines didn't get their hands on it.
ItsUncertainWho said:
People really like sticking their finger in the pot and claiming it as theirs.
And others hiding behind the originality of contract, I'm sure, regardless of whether it has been done before or not.
As to Deathwatch designed by Marine fanboi's? You might have a point there, AluminiumWolf. Perhaps we should wander over to Warseer and ask ErikBoielle/Dezmond/UselessThing what he would have done had he been writing Deathwatch ?
Kage
Kage2020 said:
ItsUncertainWho said:
People really like sticking their finger in the pot and claiming it as theirs.
And others hiding behind the originality of contract, I'm sure, regardless of whether it has been done before or not.
As to Deathwatch designed by Marine fanboi's? You might have a point there, AluminiumWolf. Perhaps we should wander over to Warseer and ask ErikBoielle/Dezmond/UselessThing what he would have done had he been writing Deathwatch ?
Kage
Cripes, you uttered the NAME!
AluminiumWolf said:
I'm just saying, if you think Deathwatch is bad you should count your lucky stars that someone who REALLY likes Space Marines didn't get their hands on it.
True. I suppose Id rather it be a space marine fan over a space marine FANBOY or a space marine hater.
Peacekeeper_b said:
Cripes, you uttered the NAME!
Is it better to be famous or notorious?
"No! Conan, what is best in life?"
Kage
Incidentally, who in this thread actually wants to play a Space Marine with a less awesome bolter?
Me! (as I've mentioned a few times so far on these boards).
AluminiumWolf said:
I'm just saying, if you think Deathwatch is bad you should count your lucky stars that someone who REALLY likes Space Marines didn't get their hands on it.
Can't wait for the 4th 40k RPG:" HI - HO!!! Squats in the grimdark of a long forgotten (about 10,000 years) hole in the ground..." THAT is a fanboi RPG.
Space Monkey said:
Me! (as I've mentioned a few times so far on these boards).
Ditto to that. I really don't care if the bolter is awesome or not awesome, just as long as the weapons are scaled around it and make sense.
Kage
So, I've been playing Dark Heresy for a while now, and I'm trying to hook my players on the idea of using Deathwatch as a "back-up" game, to play when a player is missing from what would be key plot-point sessions of DH . So, having not yet played DW , my question is: is it possible to create challenging encounters for Space Marines armed with the currently official "mega-bolters", or do they go through anything short of a Hive Tyrant like a hot knife through butter?
Adeptus-B said:
So, I've been playing Dark Heresy for a while now, and I'm trying to hook my players on the idea of using Deathwatch as a "back-up" game, to play when a player is missing from what would be key plot-point sessions of DH . So, having not yet played DW , my question is: is it possible to create challenging encounters for Space Marines armed with the currently official "mega-bolters", or do they go through anything short of a Hive Tyrant like a hot knife through butter?
It is possible to challenge them, particularly with the horde mechanics. So the debate is really about what level of critter needs to be turned into hordes in order to scare the space marines. At the current rules orks and genestealers need to be hordes, but I'd prefer if a half dozen genestealers or a dozen orks were a decent challenge instead of 20+. I'm certainly ok with scum, imperial guard, termegants, and gretchin needing to be large hordes. Your tastes may vary.
The mission based nature of Deathwatch definitely makes it well suited for one-shots or occasional games.