Zamnil Blackaxe said:

That's not the problem. My problem is before we had a nice consistent universe. The genestealers Dark Heresy characters face are the same creatures Rogue Traders face. You can easily use the material from both lines to complement each other. A space marine in DW is hardly threatened by the genestealer in DH's creature book. So since marines are dialed up to 11, you need to dial up the threats to match. So Final Sanction's genestealers do twice as much damage to compensate. I definitely would have rather things stayed a little more uniform, so the books from the other two lines are more useful to a DW GM.

Someone mentioned needing to turn up the fiction to make people buy lots of space marines, and how other armies are boring to collect. I call bull on that. I collected marines and eldar. I think I have exactly 1 squad of marines painted because after painting 10 guys the same way I got bored. Every eldar I own is painted because there was a lot more variety making them fun to paint. I started collecting and playing eldar because I got tired of space marine vs space marine fights.

Simple, turn the DH genestealers into a horde, give razor sharp. Problem solved.

Charmander said:

Oh Charmander, you tales of IG armies fills this heart with joy.

Of course there are some people reading this thinking, 'You won with IG? nerfed Space Marines... nothing like the fluff..'

Charmander said:

I know what it is about bolters. In DH most weapons are based on a fairly low damage, even a normal unarmoured guy is highly unlikely to be put down with a single shot from a lasgun. It's their one defference to heroism in the system and it's still plenty deadly. In DW they seemed to have demanded that bolters properly stop already tough Space Marines, so there the defference to Heroism was the enemies weapons.

Fluff vs. RPG question regarding bolters...How did that DW SM dude in Eisenhorn give him a SM bolt pistol which Eisenhorn used?

In the Horus Heresy novels SM armor is penetrated on a regular basis (also in the Grey Knight novels), and it was ALWAYS their awesome toughness that allowed them to survive. Might be out of commision for a while, but they survived quite a bit more often than they died. SMs are awesome because of their toughness more than their armor in the fluff.

KommissarK said:

That's my point. You have to make changes. I don't want to have to go back and tweak every stat-block, that's the point of pre-published statblocks.

Besides, a single genestealer should be fairly scary. You shouldn't need a horde. Hordes for imperial guard or orks or other stuff, yes. A horde of stealers should be terrifying. I've played space hulk (old and reprinted).

Eponral said:

I just happened to finish rereading that particular book a couple of days ago. The pistol Eisenhorn receives is specifically referred to as a Compact Bolt Pistol. As it was a gift from a Deathwatch Librarian, it could be assumed that it was sitting in their armory taking up space. The DW Libby thought the Inquisitor was worthy of it and could use it.

deinol said:

Actually, compare the Final Sanction Genestealer to the one in Creatures Anethma and you'll soon realize something:

The Creatures Anethma has 8-10 more talents than the Final Sanction Genestealer... one of which is Lightning Attack. The only thing that the Final Sanction Genestealer has is a higher Armor, more damage, and different rules for Rending Claws.

Combine the damage, Armor, and rules for Rending Claws from Final Sanction with the Genestealer from Creatures Anethma = DOOM! A proper Genestealer if I ever saw one.

Even if you don't combine the changes from Final Sanction to Creatures Anethma, I'd still wager that it's 3 attacks = more damage than the Final Sanction Genestealers.

Also, I have 10K points of Imperial Guard. Mostly that's tied up in Heavy Weapons teams and Basilisks... plus many variants of Leman Russ tanks. I regularly win against Space Marines armies when I lay down on the table:

10 Autocannons, 3 Lascannons, 6 Mortars, 5 missile launchers, and Basilisks. This was during 3rd Edition 40K, and I trounced all armies. Even Tau.

It's a matter of throwing down sooo much ordinance that they CAN'T survive to reach you in close combat. Even if the enemy would deploy a tank on the field, it was destroyed by the end of the first Shooting round (Basilisk guess range weaponry).

Despite this carnage, I still believe the fluff and enjoy the novels about the Space Marines. Even their own codex depicts them in the proper fashion... a squad of Space Marines is worth more than any other force in the galaxy... otherwise, how did they conquer it in the first place during the great crusade?

deinol said:

I´ve found genestealers to be pretty fair opponents for marines, at least when the characters are relatively new. Both the marines and genestealers are pretty lethal against eachother. Marines can shoot however, so if the GM doesn´t let the genestealers act like true genestealers would they get shot down rather fast. 4 1d10+7, Pen:7 Tearing quality attacks with WS 65 can bring a marine down real qick. Not to mention that genes can dodge twice with a 70 or less roll.

I don´t see how cleverly gamemastered genestealers are easy opponents. Ofc if they behave like lemmings they die.

EDIT: oh, just saw you refered to the genes in final sanction (you did, did you?). I was using the DH ones from the Anathema.

@SpawnoChaos: Anathema ones have 4 attacks: Lightning Attack + Multiple Arms. Badass Mofo´s they are

deinol said:

Based on Space Hulk maybe they're scary to a marine (haven't played that in YEARS), but based on (the new, and old as far as I can remember) TT their stat blocks seem to say the Marine wins most of the time- Marines have a lower WS, but have a higher BS, equal strength and toughness, lower initiative, less attacks, but a way better save (66% chance to save versus 33% chance). Versus a guardsman they mop the floor with their corpse.

In an RPG setting, while having a more powerful adversary is a good thing to invoke fear and mood, etc, you can't totally overwhelm the players. Being that your guardsman is probably one of the most survivable characters in a group of Acolytes and even he's getting wasted by the genestealer in the ambush round it makes things unfun for the players. So you create them to provide a challenge but not an insurmountable one.

Now that you've introduced the marines into the mix, you still want the stealers to create some sort of a challenge for them but be killable, you have to boost them up to the marine's level. TT stat blocks don't transition point for point- they may hint at or provide theme or feel, but they're not direct comparisons (guardsman do not have a 70s or 50s in fellowship or willpower, and marines don't have 80s).

And yes, the RPG has themes they want to convey with Deathwatch, and one of them is 'you're the elite of the elite' (as per the fluff, which is what RPGs are about), and to communicate that theme you have to feel it, which means you need a hell of a lot more than +5 to all your stats and equivalent weapon damage to your fellows. And FWIW, the RT weapons are already more powerful than the DH ones (powersword, meltas, etc.), so while some of the bumps in stats are adjustments to fit FFG's feel for the setting (as opposed to BLs), others are to promote a different scale (DH: ground pounders, grunts, RT: Captains, royalty, DW: Elite commandos/shock troops), and what is left over I'd attribute to Power Creep.

And in the immortal words of Kage, YMMV

Face Eater said:

I loved those little worthless grunts. Ah, the winter assault line they gave them, too: "When in doubt, throw more men at it."

deinol said:

I agree. I was kind of taken aback by the difference in power levels between Deathwatch and Dark Heresy / Rogue Trader , and disappointed by the lack of direct compatability.

...Maybe that's why the Deathwatch campaign setting is on the other side of the Imperium from the Calaxis Sector...

I wish they had had the courage to abandon the tabletop stats completely and instead make Marines capable of fully living up to their reputation.

Really take the safties off and produce warriors of legendary hardness who would live in gamer folklore forever.

As my local DW GM I fully plan on adjusting creatures if the need arises. It's part of the fun and ability to make threats for Space Marines. Heck, (I hope my group isn't reading this...if so STOP before I kick you in the junk =P), I plan to have them facing off against an Ork Warboss with some warp powers. There certainly is nothing in ANY of the books to just throw this in the game....heck the closest they have is the Nob in CA. Not gonna stop me from doing it....with some Gorkiness.

The point of the matter is that in Deathwatch the Space Marines are the characters and according to fluff they are tougher than my Marine DI...and then they put on their armor. I plan to make my DW game's story as epic as possible and living up to the legends of the Space Marine, having my players work together to overcome immpossible odds with a few dismembered limbs and plenty kersploded enemy in their wake.

Charmander said:

I beat SM with IG all the time. "Those space marines are **** tough!" "Yeah, let's hide behind this Exicutioner and then jump em with defensive grenades once they go after it." "You do that, I have this 'ere mortar..."

Where as in the fluff it would e soemthing like" Ah, Brother -Captain Badassicus, You look impeccable opon the battlefield this day!" "Yes, it's that refreshing clean you get from three direct hits from a volcano cannon. Too bad that scout titan was trying to hide behind me, it was totally vaporized by a shot my blessed armor deflected."

BaronIveagh said:

Yeah well, they´ve got THA SKILLZ. And ricochets can be quite nasty, ya know.

Adeptus-B said:

Yes, what with all the rules on how to make DH/RT characters for DW and how it uses the exact same system and even has rules for non-Space Marines using Astartes weapons. I can totally see the lack of compatability.

AluminiumWolf said:

The legendary hardness you talk about is (or I guess was) exactly that: legendary, ie not necessarily gospel truth, but probably exaggerated stories based on their exploits.

Marines are about right where they should be.

In most fluff, especially the more recent work, it takes a truly massive amount of lasgun fire to put one down. In Traitor General, for example, the Ghosts didn't even bother to try use their lasguns against a squad of Traitor Marines. Marines in the Heresy books are absolutely slathered in las fire before they are wounded and even then are still combat effective.

Table top stats are table top stats. They're there for a fun game, not to accurately reflect the universe. A C'tan is not equal to a couple squads of Guardsman and a tank. The Avatar of Khaine can walk through a Speed Freak horde and then punk a Dark Eldar Archon. A rifle has better range than twice the charge distance of chaos troopers. Does anyone think a Bloodthirsty of Khorne should be portrayed as anything less than an almost unstoppable killing machine?

Tau pulse weapons are nifty, but outside of table top they aren't uber. Hell table top treats Astartes bolters and those used by mere mortals as the same weapon. In Kill Team a single Deathwatch Marine with a bolter and power sword is able to engage and defeat Crisis Team, surviving several volleys of burst cannon fire before he closes. Tau tech is nice and the game stats in Deathwatch and Rogue Trader certainly support it, but a high velocity, armour piercing, explosive rocket round made out of super materials (and that's just the basic round) is pretty **** nasty.

Space Marines are near demigods equipped with the best weapons and armour, gear custom designed to take full advantage of their superhuman abilities, that a civilization that retains a core of very high technology manufacturing can produce. It should also be remembered that power armour and bolt rounds are areas where Imperial technology has actually improved since the Heresy. The Deathwatch is the best of those superhumans and given even more resources.

I think we have to accept that the RPG is not directly based off the TT game. The TT game is the springboard of an entire Expanded Universe,be it comics, novels, board games, RPGs, card game, video games, movies and so forth. Personally I dont think the game (three games I mean) stick to thier own internal logic, but they keep saying they are three different games and yet compatible, which, really they are, but not really, sort of.

But I do like a little bit of TT antics in my RPG. Meaning, I think that a lasgun should be able to potentially hurt, even kill, a space marine. It happens often enough in TT and sometimes in the novels.

I also like the notion that armour can be damaged, afterall is something hits armour hard enough that you are forced to use your own toughness to soak the damage, obviously the armour got banged up, bounced around, penetrated or knocked about to some degree where it failed to provide enough protection. Sure it may just be scratches, bruises and abrasions to the wearer, and might only be cosmetic damage to the armour, but creating some sort of armour damage system may make the game a little more interesting,

Peacekeeper_b said:

oh... I like this idea. I hope so it would be described in the next supplements.

Cynical Cat said:

Yes, because one man SHOULD be able to kill a warhound titan with his bare powerfist. (Storm of Iron) [And, for extra consistency, a moment later he's erased by another warhound titan]

Of course, then we have the inverse problem, when an Inquisitor kills in single combat a blood thrister that's wiped out two whole squads of Grey Knights... (Seige of Vraks II)

So... YMVV

Because its not the table top... Look more at the Novels and less at the table top to see where the idea behind the rules are.

HamHamJ said:

God i hate that generic using astartes equiptment rules. Especially when you consider that in DH you could have an uber character running around with a heavy bolter but upgrading up (yes UP) to a marine bolter (that weighs half as much for 2 less rounds per burst and does more damage) is expressly forbidden.

But back to the point, it mentions it being possible but it no way is remotely balanced, even a temple assassin is starting to look crap and they are supposed to be better than space marines (if much more limited in the actual roles)

postalpatriot said:

Table top (and the bachground that supported it) came before the novels.

Cynical Cat said:

That's fair enough it does take a lot of lasgun shots to stop an SM, well represented in the TT mind, and as small group the Ghosts can't afford to trade fire with a SM like a 30, or more. strong unit of guardsmen can try to.

Cynical Cat said:

Yes it's not exactly perfect, but there's nothing standard about a greater deamon of C'tan but making it so devastating, and thus expensive in point that you can't field in an normal game it pointless, there are already seperate greater deamon stats for appocalypes (for the appropriately expensive models).

Cynical Cat said:

Where aren't they Uber Cat. In the SM novels where plot demands they don't kill that specific space marine. Cause the desciptions are pretty clear on the fact that those rail accelerated plasma bolt are hard as hell. And crisis suits? Those huge, super fast tough old mini dreads brisling weapons. But because one novel for the sake of story the main character (and xeno killing specialist) takes out a few suits that all SM's are three times as good a crisis suit? That they need to fielded in teams of 30 to hope to take out a squad of SM? Or is it more likely that in most situations a Crisis suit pilot is worth several space marines on his own, especially with the right equiptment.

Cynical Cat said:

Super humans to demi-gods. It's getting more outlandish everytime. The thing about representing a SM on the TT is reigned in by a single factor, regardless of where your ideas of them from a SM can and will get killed by heavy artillery which players are pefectly capable of (and really want to) fielding. So having way fewer with much better stats isn't going to get you anywhere, plus by the time you increased the stats of everything that's equivalent or harder in the fluff then it's not actually going to make a difference. This is grimdark universe where everthing dies, that's why there's a million space marines. If this was the Marvel universe there would have been the original 20 and that would have done.

Sorry bout that, got to ranting again. I wasn't pickin gon you specifically Cat but you brought all the arguements that I've seen around the place at once.