Mmmmm......Bolt Pistols.

RogalDorn said:

By realistic I mean "You better keep your helmets on all the time or you'll get shot", "The ROF of the Bolter is too low", etc. Such concerns are seperate from the question of whether 1 Marine should be equal to 3 Orks or to 15 Orks. Or more.

Ah I understand. I'm with you on the keep your helmet on camp of realism. However that type of realism would see ranged combat massively overpower melee combat.

wgerrard said:

I was wrong

Stormtrooper w/ Hellgun is d10+4, Pen 7, Tearing but lacks a full-auto setting.

They are inferior, but a Stormtrooper of that level will no doubt have all the ranged combat talents, so gets to pick where their shot hits, ignore rnage penalties and get a +2 damage.

and don't get me started on Vindicare Assassins. The ability to dodge literally every attack on them (even if it would normally be undodgable), in addition to one of the nastiest weapons in all three games, which can do upto 4d10 base dice damage (and ignore unnatural toughness). I believe they get access to unnatural strength, toughness and agility.

Death Cultists can get unnatural Agility x4... but also a Moriat Death Cultist is doing tearing damage with two power swords and can take 5 attacks with a half-action and may reroll a failed attack!

This is addressed primarily to all the "Black Library -canon is the only true canon" believers:

If you look at the 40K lore as a whole the lore is very largely inconsistent with how much difference there is in different bolters.

Older (3rd edition) table-top fluff says Sister and Marine bolters are equal in pretty much every way. They are also both made to be used by Power Armor wielding troops, so they pretty much require the power-armour augmented strenght to wield. Which would mean the bolt pistols used by comissars are something of lesser weapons.

Newer (5th edition) table-top fluff says Marine weapons are "best-of-the-best". There is no newer than 3rd ed fluff on Sisters weapons.

In older RPG fluff (Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader) there was "civilian" bolt guns and "military" bolt guns. Both were usable without power armor but "military" issue used by Rogue Traders and Marines were more powerful. Sisters used the less powerfull "civilian" version.

Newest RPG fluff (Deathwatch) there are "Astartes" weapons which are unusable by anyone else than full-blown marine in Astartes power-armor and are equal to Imperial Guard autocannons in firepower. But then again in DW each and every weapon with "Astartes" in front of its name gets doble-helping of awesomeness and double damage which makes Imperial guard meltaguns look like popguns (an largely unable to hurt a marine) when compared to just a simpkle Astartes Bolt Pistol...

Don't get me wrong. I love marines. I run Deathwatch and play Raven Guards army in table-top. I can live with the Black Library -fluff when its put into the context of literature. I hate Black Library -fluff only when it becomes the sola scriptura of the protestant marine-lovers, preaching the utter awesomeness of Astartes breed. You should know what I mean. The difference between what I love and what I hate is simple: I can live with Astartes weapons being **** lot better than IG equivalents. After all, these are weapons that are designed to be used with exoskeleton that can lift a car. You really can't expect a human lift or operate them. However, I see absolutely no reason why other people in power armor (Inquisitors, AdMech Secutor, Sororitas) would not use the very same type of for-power-armored-use-only weapons.

Polaria said:

There's a difference between the power armor of a Inquisitor, Sororitas..etc in comparison with Space Marines. Space Marines are huge, even without power armor a space marine is like if Yao Ming and Shaq merged (2.29 m 147 kg) and that's your average marine, on the flip side tallest Inquisitors hover around ~2.0 m and ~2.03 in power armor. It's not the weight alone that makes an Astartes weapon normally unwieldable by non Space Marines it's the size. It's like game console controllers, Civilians get the Wii, Military the PS3, and Astartes? XBAWKs. Original Xbawks was huge, and the controller was huge (originally). You can still play with one but for the average man/woman trying to play with the original Xbox controller/dreamcast controller it's difficult and uncomfortable. Just because you put on some gloves that makes your hand just a little bit bigger, however your still not able to comfortably play with it.

That's how I see it.

Manyfist said:

"The Duke" was the greatest controller ever designed and the first to ever be comfortable to play with. The Japanese controllers, which became the standard size, sucked and were too small.

Man, how I miss "The Duke."

I was never really impressed with the Dark Heresy retconn of bolters to make two different ones. It smacked of marine fanboism (ie had no other purpose than to make marines MORE awesome) and created ridiculous inconsistencies between weaponry. It wasn't in 40k until that point (I haven't found any division between the two in 40k until DH - even the BL novels didn't really distinguish between them, humans firing bolters did the damage marines did).

The bolter is a rare weapon. Marines just always got rare weapons. It didn't need to be in two versions to make it rare. It already was. A marine would need a more heavily armoured bolter because it's carried to the front (where all the incoming fire is directed) thus making it bulkier, but that doesn't simply make it better.

This then creates silly inconsistencies where an 'astartes' bolter is better at taking out pretty much anything than a plasma gun, which then begs the question why marines have a dedicated special weapon opertator in their squads that can carry a plasma gun for AT/anti heavy infantry work. Why take such a volatile low shot/reload weapon when something of almost equal damage is more reliable with more shots and higher RoF is the standard firearm?

Because they pushed the marine bolter up so massively in damage from the standard one, they would have to push the plasma gun beyond melta gun stats in order to make it scale properly. That's what happens when you shift the scale from the bottom end of the weapon spectrum. Resulting in ridiculous weapon scaling.

Hellebore

Manyfist said:

Crunch-wise the powered armors all provide +20 to strength (except lightt power armor). Space Marines, outside of power armor, are simply tall for humans- they're not hulking. Both Space Marines and 'mortals' inside of Power Armor are considered Hulking (with the exception that due to the black carapace interface SMs don't count as hulking when people shoot at them). Fluff-wise the heights change every time you blink- they maintain "Space Marines are tall" but it seems the precise target for that changes. DW indicates they're shorter than a lot of the board members seem to like, and the lexicanum just says "at least 2m tall."

I guess my personal issue with the rule is that there is no clear requirement, it's just "You can't"; maybe I'd have an easier time if it was "must posess unnatural strength x2 or greater" or "must have a Strength 55 or higher" or "must be hulking" (and then you have to make SMs hulking). I have a hard time imagining their hands are like great big bear paws, incapable of gripping anything smaller than lamp posts or fire hydrants with any dexterity. The PA DOES give a small penalty to fine tasks, but I always operated under the assumption that was for things like typing n a human sized keyboard or trying to re-wire a light fixture- things that would be hard with bulky gloves on. And if it was Power Armor only, how would Scouts use any of the Astartes weapons? If it ever comes up in my game, I'll likely houserule it...

@ItIsUncertainWho: I've got fairly small hands, but I LOVED my Duke controller, it just felt right in the hands- only thing I didn't like were those lame black and white buttons that requires some sort of double jointed fingers to reach...

@Hellebore: AFAIK DH started off saying the boltguns weren't military grade well before the other editions. If any retconning was done I'm pretty sure that it was away from the novels- to me that says more that they didn't want boltguns to distrupt the DH setting than Marine fanboism. But then again I've not read enough BL novels to have seen a division as important at any moment.

I do agree that the weapon chart in DW is a little off, the inconsistencies and bolter love seems a little much for me, but most of the tweaks I see to resolve it would be pretty minor. I'm hoping to see an eratted weapon chart some day in the future, the metla v plasma v lascannon versus their req cost seems pretty wrong.

Hellebore said:

If it's a rare weapon, it stands to reason that most people could only get access to cheap copies of the real deal.

As for plasma and meltaguns, my solution is to add an additional D10 to either weapon's damage for better scaling.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Sure, most of these bounty hunters, pirates and Necromundan gangers would be snapping up the cheap crap cause everyone loves bolters. But what about the inquisitors and Sororitas? They don't even have the option of anything close. Those =I= can weild weapons derived from the Emporers own ******* but can't get hold of a decent bolter?

For Plasma guns and melta guns that's must but it's tip of the iceberg considering that this is supposed to be compatible with DH:assecension and RT.

I believe its also partly due to the Marines being genetically altered, with exo-skeleton etc... that they are able to wield stronger weapons. You have to remeber that allthough the Sisters of battle had power armour they weren't able to be genetically modified, thus their armour and weapons weren't to the same variety that the adeptus astartes had, and as for the inquisitors its the same case as the sisters of battle allthough they can use power armour, its a lesser version due to them not being super human, just ordinary men, who have excelled in skill to reach the ranks of being an inquisitor.

Truth is, it does follow the books alot, and it may not be your vision of tabletop warfare, but it does in some respects captures the ideologies of being a member of the adeptus astartes, and more so an extreme individual in the DeathWatch.

but thats simply my view on it

Deity_Diablo said:

Interestingly enough the Godwyn Deaz bolter is listed as superior (according to the WH codex) to other weapons of its class which based on the name would include the Godwyn bolter, the standard issue for space marines. Sororitas power armor is also listed as equally protective for Sisters as the archaic Asatrtes power armor (their words not mine) according to the same source. It just lacks the advanced life support systems.

I've always assumed that the references to Space Marine equipment being 'better' than that of common Guardsmen meant that it was better maintained and made from higher-quality materials to more exacting tollerances (i.e. less likely to malfunction), not more powerful. I'm in the camp of disliking the drastic difference in power of Deathwatch bolters vs Dark Heresy bolters. Although, that said, I've always thought that bolters in DH were under-powered: basically they are like shotguns with better armour penetration. If they ever come out with a 2nd Edition of WH40KRP , I would ideally like to see one stat for bolters, mid-way between DH and DW ...

I too belong to those people dissatisfied with the "bolter- issue" in particular and the weapon scaling in general. Most of the relevant arguments have already been pointed by others so I will not reiterate them.

Perhaps the question is what would the statistics be for their wishful bolter that is somewhere in between that presented for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch ? And how would that effect the "brick" of a MArnie with all their Unnatural Attributes?

Kage

I like that Deathwatch makes marines More Awesome, but they still are not awesome enough.

The adventures so far either have them doing relatively unimportant tasks (Final Sanction, Shadow of Madness, Extraction) or tries to have them do Epic Deeds in scale with the universe and have it become apparent that their success in such is due entirely to the GM pulling his punches (Oblivions Edge).

If you want three to five Marines to make a difference to the Imperium they need an upgrade.

AluminiumWolf said:

5 marines repelling a genestealer cult from a planet single handedly isn't awesome enough for you?

I'm sorry if you are having trouble distinguishing yourself from the other million übermensch in the universe. Perhaps the reason it is hard for a single space marine to have a major impact on the Imperium is because the very presence of 1,000 chapters of 1,000 space marines is already what defines the Imperium and allows it to exist.

Perhaps to be a true hero among space marines you'll need to earn a little experience and increase in rank. I mean, space marines are fairly rocking right off the bat. Perhaps the heroes of the space marine novels are actually higher than starting xp characters?

Why do the Space MArnies of Deathwatch remind me of Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men ?

Colonel Jessop, A Few Good Men said >>>

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a **** what you think you are entitled to.

God bless those MArnies. What would the Imperium do without them in the face of those pesky xenos Sephiroth.

Kage

The main problem seem to be that there are exactly two interpretations of the fluff:

#1 Astartes are the best-of-the-best the mankind can produce. They have access to best equipment and the best genetherapies and training methods.

#2 Astartes are the best-of-the best the mankind can produce. No-one else has access to the same level of equipment or genetherapies and training methods.

The difference is seemingly small, but important. #1 puts Astartes above mankind. #2 puts them beyond mankind.

Now if we look at the fluff as whole (All codexes old and new, all RPGs, Black Library and whatnot) the #1 is actually most prevalent in the fluff. The side-effect of #1 interpretation is that someone else besides Astartes can have same caliber equipment and ass-kickingness. If we read enough fluff we already know this to be true in some specific cases (Officio Assassinorum is the first to pop in mind)... However, the reason why #1 interpretation is so often refuted by people favoring #2 interpretation is that it somehow makes Astartes less awesome than they think is appropriate. Basically its the age-old question of if Astartes are "just" best-of-the-best or very real, honest-to-god, no-punches-pulled demigods. Its basically the division between how awesome you need to be in order to make a differenc. In other words, can Astartes make the difference because they are the best mankind has an do the most difficult jobs or do they make difference because they are literal gods farting lighting bolts?

Needless to say, I favor #1 for several reasons.

Polaria said:

I agree. However, I never really see #2 except in BL novels, and usually these are the protagonists where you have to accept that they get righteous fury, fate points, get to spend XP more often and often benefit from GM fiat to fulfill the plot of the story, or, in other words, they will do whatever the writer of the novel writes, to fit the story he is telling. I mean how great would the Ultramarine novels (or Space Wolf novels) be if the protagonist gets killed in the first act?

The same goes for the other novels from BL. In Redemption Corps a Stormtrooper goes face to face, hand to hand with a Ork big 'un and not only likes, but kills the sucker. Because he is the PC. And Commissar Cain killed a Chaos Space Marine with his chainsword?????

The difference in the bolters, should be quality (Astartes should be a quality that gives benefits to repairing, preventing jamming, reload time, accuracy and such, not adding super damage, but a point or two) and the space marine should have skills and talents that enhance his skills with the weapon.

But obviously whoever wrote the first space marine in the game (for Purge the Unclean) had a mad on for space marines.

Polaria said:

I think the two interpretations are a bit more blurry. I tend to favor #2. I tend to consider most Boltguns to be cheap Astartes quality knock-offs which are still very good compared to autoguns, etc. True Astartes Boltguns are very difficult to obtain and only illegally as they are the prerogative of the Space Marines (even Inquisitors are normally not supposed to have them) and they are largely unsuited for use by most mortal because of the size and strengths differences.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I can agree with you arguments to a degree Alex. I have in the past read some Necromunda novels and played some Necromunda TT games. But as the years ahve gone by some of the fluff has contradicted itself, like hive gangers having plasma guns?!?!?! But then I started to view that as more of slang term, like calling your pistol a GAT. Obviously your pistol isnt a GATlin Gun or anything, its just a slang term. So I started thinking that Plasma Pistols were converted laspistols in Necromunda that were more akin to hotshot pistols (hellpistols) then real plasma guns, so it was more believable that a ganger had one.

And I started thinking of their bolt guns as just bigger auto pitols with manstopper rounds. The rest, as I said, was just gang talk, underhive slang and nick names.

But as it is now, in a fight between a space marine and a ork, a ork is never going to hurt a space marine (with 16 points of soak on his arms and legs and head, and 18 points on his torso) with his shoota of 1D10+4 damage 0 pen. And a Space Marine will have a fair chance of killing a ork outright with every shot (2D10+5, Pen 5, tearing, space marine +2 damage bonus with bolters against TB 8 and 16 wounds-Rogue Trader page 377).

Space Marines are not gods, though they are Angels of Death, but even in the novels (about 95% of them that is) Orks and Eldar and even traitor guard, can and do kill them. Some times very often. With guns, with swords, with axes, with bombs.

As far as Deathwatch RPG goes, Space Marines are the Top, Tyranids the next, followed by Tau Weapons, then Chaos Space Marines.

Peacekeeper_b said:

That's how I'm going to run it. I've been leafing through a friend's Rynn's World novel recently though. Orks better come in hordes or as "character models" (power klaw anyone?) in my game. I want Orks. Lots of them. :-)

It might have to do with one friend GMing DH, another RT and me GMing DW. I am inclined to run it as the high end game. Epic, bordering on over-the-top. I want to see the marines cut their path through masses of hordes.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Daemon Princes.

Alex

Peacekeeper_b said:

Yeah, a chainsword through the chest tends to do that.