Lead by Example sure is Smurfy!

By HappyDaze, in Deathwatch

Posted at

ak-73 said:

No, they cannot. You did not read my advice and check out page 219 in its entirety.

"He only needs to spend this cost once, however, and once an ability has been activated, it remains so for the remainder of the Mission (if the ability is Sustained) or for the duration of a single combat (if the ability is not Sustained)..."

Beyond that sayles78 is right: a specific descrription overturns a general rule.

Alex

What about if you change to a different power and want to go back? You have to repay the cost or, since you already paid, it's free?

I admit that I missed the once per mission cost statement. That implies you might as well just spend all your cohesion immediately so you don't lose it due to damage, then swap modes as needed (it would make rejoining Squad mode during combat a pain).

Posted at

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt page 219 state that you can spend your cohesion on x amount of sustainable powers and have them for an entire mission?

i always assumed that you can sustain a sustainable power as long as atleast one person stays in squad mode and sustains the power in question, and that unsustainable powers only lasted for 1 round.

Posted at

HappyDaze said:

I originally was unimpressed by the Ultramarines. On my first pass the only thing I really liked about them was the flexible Characteristic bonuses. Even their Chapter patterns seemed meh. And then I realized how powerful Lead by Example really is...

The key is that, if used by a Tactical Marine with Tactical Expertise, all members of the team start putting out the bonus. That means that your Kill-team can gain a bonus to all actions equal to the sum of their total Fellowship bonuses. In a five-Marine Kill-team, that can easily be +20 from the start! And then each Marine can give one re-roll per turn! After Rank 4, the bonus doubles, so it shouldn't be too hard to have very nearly +50 to everything (assuming a few members of the team have upped Fellowship)!

Smurfy!

Crazy...

Lead by Example is an Ultramarine Attack Pattern.
Attack Patterns are Squad Mode abilities (as per p 221).
p219, under "Using chapter specific abilities", says that Squad Mode abilities specific to a chapter benefit only the brothers of the same chapter.
Thus, Lead by Example would work only on Ultramarine.

Tactical Expertise let any brother benefit from chapter specific Squad Mode abilities

Posted at

ak-73 said:

HappyDaze said:

Are you guys reading the same book I am? Look at page 219 where, under Cost, it clearly states:

Cost: The ability's cost in Cohesion. The Battle-Brother must pay this cost from his Kill-team's pool of Cohesion points to activate the ability during the course of the a Mission. However this cost need only be paid once per Mission.

Note especially the last sentence. There's no "once per combat" or anything of the sort. Once you've used it once during a Mission (and paid for it once), you have free access to it. This is how Holy Vengeance and Fury of Sanguinous can be spammed all over the place, and why they're better IMO than Lead by Example.

No, they cannot. You did not read my advice and check out page 219 in its entirety.

"He only needs to spend this cost once, however, and once an ability has been activated, it remains so for the remainder of the Mission (if the ability is Sustained) or for the duration of a single combat (if the ability is not Sustained)..."

Beyond that sayles78 is right: a specific descrription overturns a general rule.

Alex

I did read it. Just because the ability only remain activated for the duration of one combat (or less in the case of many non-Sustained abilities), does NOT override the ruling that you only need to pay for it once per Mission. It also does not restrict you from using an ability again, especially if it's duration is up.

Now if you're trying to say that Fury of Sanguinous, once used remains 'active' for the entire combat and can't be activated again even though the benefits only last one Turn, then that's a total bit of dickery right there. It's effectively the harshest reading of each point.

Posted at

Exarkfr said:

HappyDaze said:

I originally was unimpressed by the Ultramarines. On my first pass the only thing I really liked about them was the flexible Characteristic bonuses. Even their Chapter patterns seemed meh. And then I realized how powerful Lead by Example really is...

The key is that, if used by a Tactical Marine with Tactical Expertise, all members of the team start putting out the bonus. That means that your Kill-team can gain a bonus to all actions equal to the sum of their total Fellowship bonuses. In a five-Marine Kill-team, that can easily be +20 from the start! And then each Marine can give one re-roll per turn! After Rank 4, the bonus doubles, so it shouldn't be too hard to have very nearly +50 to everything (assuming a few members of the team have upped Fellowship)!

Smurfy!

Crazy...

Lead by Example is an Ultramarine Attack Pattern.
Attack Patterns are Squad Mode abilities (as per p 221).
p219, under "Using chapter specific abilities", says that Squad Mode abilities specific to a chapter benefit only the brothers of the same chapter.
Thus, Lead by Example would work only on Ultramarine.

Tactical Expertise let any brother benefit from chapter specific Squad Mode abilities

What's to stop multiple Ultramarines from each Leading by Example? That's where I wonder if the power is able to stack.

Posted at

It doesn't stack, read squad actions p.219

Also as per a post on the rules questions sub forum, it is:

Sustained - once spent for, can be reactivated during the mission for no cost

Non Sustained - once spent for, can be reactivated during the same combat for no cost.

The key thing to remember though, is that a character can only benefit from one ability each turn (as per squad actions on p. 219).

Assuming a squad of all ultramarines, they can't all activate the ability and stack it. Its also not the sum of their FB, like the OP said, so its still only a bonus in the range of 3-7 until rank 4, and 6-14 after, along with a single reroll. Instead of being able to participate in pretty much any other squad mode ability, as they will always recieve the benefit of this ability on their turn (unless they choose to stop being a part of it).

I would simply say that I think a BT tac marine with tac expertise using Holy vengance in the one fight against the really tough scary guy (or against hordes, as more melee attacks = lots of mag damage) is by far more valuable than an tac smurf with tac expertise giving everyone a +5 bonus to all skill checks, and locking them in on that squad ability wise.

Or rather: Gasp! Each of these are good in their own situations. Lead by example is hardly "unbalanced," as the line of thought the OP had in this thread was completely off (this skill will not give anywhere near a +20 or higher bonus).

Posted at

HappyDaze said:

ak-73 said:

HappyDaze said:

Are you guys reading the same book I am? Look at page 219 where, under Cost, it clearly states:

Cost: The ability's cost in Cohesion. The Battle-Brother must pay this cost from his Kill-team's pool of Cohesion points to activate the ability during the course of the a Mission. However this cost need only be paid once per Mission.

Note especially the last sentence. There's no "once per combat" or anything of the sort. Once you've used it once during a Mission (and paid for it once), you have free access to it. This is how Holy Vengeance and Fury of Sanguinous can be spammed all over the place, and why they're better IMO than Lead by Example.

No, they cannot. You did not read my advice and check out page 219 in its entirety.

"He only needs to spend this cost once, however, and once an ability has been activated, it remains so for the remainder of the Mission (if the ability is Sustained) or for the duration of a single combat (if the ability is not Sustained)..."

Beyond that sayles78 is right: a specific descrription overturns a general rule.

Alex

I did read it. Just because the ability only remain activated for the duration of one combat (or less in the case of many non-Sustained abilities), does NOT override the ruling that you only need to pay for it once per Mission. It also does not restrict you from using an ability again, especially if it's duration is up.

Now if you're trying to say that Fury of Sanguinous, once used remains 'active' for the entire combat and can't be activated again even though the benefits only last one Turn, then that's a total bit of dickery right there. It's effectively the harshest reading of each point.

Given the awesomeness of the power, that's how I read it but I will concede it might be a house ruling.

What I do not understand where you see the restrictions of non-sustained powers. As I see it, you either have to pay them each combat anew or you can only use them once per combat. If you rule that you only pay once and then can spam them all the way, there is no difference to sustained powers. Non-sustained powers must have a disadvantage in comparison to sustained powers when it comes to that.

Jesus, those rules are confusingly written. I guess most of us can agree on that.

Alex

Posted at

AK, read the clarification on this thread http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=386504

Once again:

Sustained - pay once, available entire mission

Non sustained - pay once, available for entire encounter, after that, pay again next encounter

Overall, I'd say this is rough for non sustained, as alot of them cost a good bit. Still, they're excellent in the important fights.

Posted at

KommissarK said:

AK, read the clarification on this thread http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=386504

Once again:

Sustained - pay once, available entire mission

Non sustained - pay once, available for entire encounter, after that, pay again next encounter

Overall, I'd say this is rough for non sustained, as alot of them cost a good bit. Still, they're excellent in the important fights.

I believe that's what I was originally saying.

Alex

Posted at

KommissarK said:

AK, read the clarification on this thread http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=212&efcid=3&efidt=386504

Once again:

Sustained - pay once, available entire mission

Non sustained - pay once, available for entire encounter, after that, pay again next encounter

Overall, I'd say this is rough for non sustained, as alot of them cost a good bit. Still, they're excellent in the important fights.

So, by this reading, Fury of Sanguinous costs 3 Cohesion, but it can then be spammed over and over as needed throughout the duration of a single combat encounter (as long as the BATM with Tactical Expertise can pass his Command Test for each use to grant it to the non-BAs). The same goes for the BTs' Holy Vengeance too. Still seems really powerful.

Posted at

However, according to Ross, only one Squad Ability can be used in the Squad at a time, so you have to weight up whether it's worth sustaining a power or not, because if you stop sustaining a power, you'd then have to pay the Cohesion cost again to start it back up.

Posted at

MILLANDSON said:

However, according to Ross, only one Squad Ability can be used in the Squad at a time, so you have to weight up whether it's worth sustaining a power or not, because if you stop sustaining a power, you'd then have to pay the Cohesion cost again to start it back up.

Is that indeed the case? I thought I saw a clarification from him stating that the phrasing on p. 219, the last sentence of the first paragraph under "Using Squad Mode Abilities" is in fact the intended case.

Posted at

So, what happens if I'm sustaining an ability and someone else activates one? Can I continue to sustain mine, or have I been forced out of it? Is he blocked from activating a squad mode until I mine? As soon as I stop sustaining it, can I re-activate it without incurring the cost again?

If a dropped sustained power requires you to re-pay to re-activate it, non-sustained powers are quite a bit stronger, at least for the for the one combat.

Overall, I agree with ak. The squad mode rules are not well written at all.

Posted at

MILLANDSON said:

However, according to Ross, only one Squad Ability can be used in the Squad at a time, so you have to weight up whether it's worth sustaining a power or not, because if you stop sustaining a power, you'd then have to pay the Cohesion cost again to start it back up.

I haven't seen anything that suggest this. In the worst case, a non-Sustained power can be used repeatedly in a single Combat, and a Sustained power can be used throughout the Mission after a single expenditure of Cohesion, even if you toggle it on/off.

Posted at

As I read it, it seems pretty simple:

Sustained = pay Cohesion cost once per mission

Non-Sustained = pay Cohesion cost once per combat

I don't believe you can be "forced" out of a Squad Ability you want to use; I think you have the option to use the active ability you want to use. I don't have my rulebook handy, but that seems to be the most user-friendly option. Being pushed out of your beneficial squad mode ability so your Assault Marine can get a bonus to hit doesn't seem like it would do much for kill-team Cohesion.

Posted at

A few more thoughts on squad mode abilities, since we're talking about them here. /hijack

If the team is somehow split up, can multiple groups be in separate Squad modes?

If only one member of the team wants to be in Squad mode, are they SOL? Assume Squaddie A joins Squad mode at Initiative 10 with Squaddie B (currently in Solo mode. Someone has to be first to form up the Squad) in his Support Range. At init 5, Squaddie B decides he'd rather stay in Solo Mode to use his ZOMG uber solo ability. Does A immediately lose Squad mode? How about if Squaddie C moves into Support Range at Init 4. Do C & A have to re-test to reform their squad?

Posted at

I think the members of the squad are determined outside of iniative order. In other words, B knew he was in squad before his turn occured, and hes being stupid for quitting. Or, hopefully A managed what he wanted before hand.

Generally though, I think what is absolutely important here is that players make public their intentions.

I think it is written in the book that squad mode requires another marine in support range. For teams of size 1, I would allow the character to activate squad mode.