I originally was unimpressed by the Ultramarines. On my first pass the only thing I really liked about them was the flexible Characteristic bonuses. Even their Chapter patterns seemed meh. And then I realized how powerful Lead by Example really is...

The key is that, if used by a Tactical Marine with Tactical Expertise, all members of the team start putting out the bonus. That means that your Kill-team can gain a bonus to all actions equal to the sum of their total Fellowship bonuses. In a five-Marine Kill-team, that can easily be +20 from the start! And then each Marine can give one re-roll per turn! After Rank 4, the bonus doubles, so it shouldn't be too hard to have very nearly +50 to everything (assuming a few members of the team have upped Fellowship)!

Smurfy!

Crazy...

While it may be possible to read the power this way, taking into context the write-up of the other powers IMO makes it clear that it's supposed to refer to the smurf initiating Lead By Example giving the fellowship bonus to every battlebrother in range who can benefit from an Ultramarine power by being an Ultramarine or being inspired by a tactical smurf.

Your interpretation makes this power rather crappy compared to almost all of the Chapter patterns.

As it's written, each battle-brother using it gives the bonus, and it's as infectious as a 2nd edition virus grenade hitting an imperial Guard army. This thing gets really powerful if your numbers are high, but tapers off pretty quickly as Marines leave support range (or get taken out).

HappyDaze said:

I disagree. Cifer's interpretation makes it be fully adequate. especially if Rank 4 or higher.

Alex

I am quite confident that Cifer's interpretation is the correct intent of the power (and I play an Ultramarine Tactical Marine).

ak-73 said:

ak-73 said:

So you're saying that it should only provide a bonus of + Fel bonus (of the Ultramarine with the highest bonus) and 1 reroll per turn (likely determined by whoever has the best Fel). That still feels pretty weak to me.

Compare it to Holy Vengeance where everyone gets multiple attack opportunities, or Fury of Sanguinous which is simply awesome (who cares that it only lasts one Turn - it's a Free Action so just keep using it again and again after you've paid the Cohesion cost once). In fact, most of the powers are way better than "everyone gets +(Fel bonus) to all actions and one guy gets a re-roll once per turn" as your reading of Lead by Example provides.

HappyDaze said:

A free re-roll is like a free karma point expenditure per turn. At rank 4+, everyone in support range gets sth like +10 on all tests. Including psi, resistance rolls, skill tests, charachteristic tests, attack rolls, dodges, etc etc. Better than the Space Wolves power. At least more universal/versatile.

Alex

Tactical Expertise allows the Marine to share the benefit of his Chapter's Squad Mode ability; it does not grant non-Chapter teammates the ability itself. Everyone in the kill-team would not be spamming out their Fellowship bonus, although they would benefit from the Ultramarine's bonus (assuming he successfully invoked Tactical Expertise).

If you had an entire kill-team of Ultramarines, I suppose they could all use the ability and stack up a massive bonus... but the name "Lead by Example" suggests that only the highest Fellowship bonus should be used. That's how I would interpret it at least. If everyone is leading by example, no one is leading by example.

HappyDaze said:

Realize that it is not the sum, just one. Note that it says: "Battle Brother's fellowship bonus" instead of the "Battle Brothers' fellowship bonus".

And the bonus is a number ranging from 1-10. Also, characters can only receive bonuses from one sustained ability, so its not like a squad of ultrasmurfs can confer it on each other.

And yes, when it doubles, the max is basically +14 (50 base, +20 from advances, +5 from chapter base bonus, if selected)

I have to ask, just where are you reading that it is the sum?

HappyDaze said:

These are not sustained. You have to pay the Cohesion cost every time you activate the power. Sustained Suppression (two full auto bursts a turn? yes please) and Lead by Example are the clear winners for Chapter Attack powers.

Radomo said:

A +5 to +14 bonus is better than 3-5 free attacks in melee? Or having an awesome variation on overwatch?

Yes, WHEN you combine it with both a targetable reroll, and the fact that you get this bonus (and this reroll) for every round of combat, rather than just ONCE. I would much rather the whole team be more accurate with all attacks, melee or ranged, for the entire combat, than boosting just those members who are in melee one time.

I'm not claiming it is objectively better than everything else, but if you START the combat with Lead by Example (rather than waiting for the right round to unleash an unsustainable one, and sustain Lead by Example for the fight, I think it will end up being a pretty useful squad ability, especially if you use the rerolls intelligently.

But still, you're locking yourself in with that ability, as since you receive a benefit from it, it counts as your squad action for that turn, and you cant immediately make use of other squad mode abilities when another squad member activates them (as per p219). All for a +3 to +14 bonus and a single reroll. Id take a well timed bolter charge or furious assault over that.

Radomo said:

They don't need to be sustained. You can use them every **** Turn (at least the Fury of Sanguinous since it's a Free action, and Holy Vengeance is after Rank 4). The Cost of the ability is only paid once per mission, NOT every time you use the power. After that initial use, you can spam it all over the place at will.

HappyDaze said:

Yes but the next combat you have to pay the cohesion cost all over again. And I fail to see why FoS > LbE.Sustained powers must be paid once per mission only, the others once per combat.

Alex

Fury of Sanguinius: The cohesion is spent upon activation, the special abilities then last for the remainder of that turn, and the following turn up to the start of the activating team members turn. I'm not sure if you can use more than once (spending the necessary cohesion) per combat...

Lead by Example is ALWAYS active - spending the cohesion once. A team member may drop out of squad mode to use his own solo abilities, then come back in and still benefit from LBE. For me - it's way better. Starts off a bit under-impressive, but gets good, and is always of some assistance even at low levels.

sayles78 said:

Non-sustained abilities last one combat, page 219.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yes, but the description of F.o.S. specifically states how long it lasts (page 222), which in my view, over rules the general description of how long abilities last.

Quote:

A Battle-Brother of the Blood Angels chapter may call out to his Primarch Sanguinius to strengthen his arm and and fill him with rage against his foes. Until the start of his next turn , the Battle-Brother, and those in support range of him add +10 to their Weapon Skill, Strength and Toughness...

I do agree this is somewhat of a contradiction (and there are many in that book!), but, a specific description, for a specific power takes precedence over generalised descriptions.

Are you guys reading the same book I am? Look at page 219 where, under Cost, it clearly states:

Cost: The ability's cost in Cohesion. The Battle-Brother must pay this cost from his Kill-team's pool of Cohesion points to activate the ability during the course of the a Mission. However this cost need only be paid once per Mission.

Note especially the last sentence. There's no "once per combat" or anything of the sort. Once you've used it once during a Mission (and paid for it once), you have free access to it. This is how Holy Vengeance and Fury of Sanguinous can be spammed all over the place, and why they're better IMO than Lead by Example.

The whole cohesion and squad tactics stuff is so muddied that it's probably best to wait for errata.

That's assuming you have a Black Templar or Blood Angel Tactical Marine to spam them. In addition to neither Chapter being particularly well-suited to a leadership role, both Chapters are heavily slanted towards Assault... not to say some few players might break the mould, but most people aren't going to choose BT or BA for their winning personalities or to keep their distance from the enemy.

I agree though that if non-sustained abilities have no per-activation cost, then a free action non-sustained power is effectively the same as a sustained power. I'm curious what the intent was there.

Direach said:

I'm not a huge fan of the Black Templars, but I do love the Blood Angels. A Blood Angels Tactical Marine would certainly appeal to me, and it's a pretty good deal as the Blood Angels Chapter Advances give him a dash of assaulty goodness to blend with his shootyness. Remember that Tactical Marines are not the guys that keep their distance from the enemy - they're the guys that adapt to any engagement style needed.

HappyDaze said:

Yes, there is a once per combat rule. It's in the other column on page219, under Using Squad Mode Abilities, first paragraph, last sentence. The part you quoted is only a shortened descriptor of the actual rule.

Disregard this post.

HappyDaze said:

No, they cannot. You did not read my advice and check out page 219 in its entirety.

"He only needs to spend this cost once, however, and once an ability has been activated, it remains so for the remainder of the Mission (if the ability is Sustained) or for the duration of a single combat (if the ability is not Sustained)..."

Beyond that sayles78 is right: a specific descrription overturns a general rule.

Alex