space marines talents

By Lucius Valerius, in Deathwatch House Rules

I know some of you won't agree with this BUT I believe both "Two Weapon Wield" talents should be moved to rank 1 or 2 in the general marine advances table for 800 each (this way assault marines still get it cheaper). Reason ? Well it did strike me when I was looking at the Ultramarines Pasts's table where the last entry says you were a Scout Sergeant. I know, I know those are just guidelines but at the same time give us roughly an estimate of the position of the marine at the time he was assigned to the DW.

As all TT players know Sergeants all use 2 weapons (standard chainsword and bolt pistol) regardles of their assigned unit, and it get even more evident as you go up in ranks. Librarians, Aphotecaries, even techmarines too ALL use a melee weapon and bolt pistol at least. It gets even better with Space Wolves Codex where everyone goes around with at least a blade and a bolt pistol.

Are you going to tell me all this folks are Assault Marines ? Ofcourse not, BUT this also mean they must be able to purchase it indipendently from their designation without the need to force the players to go elite advances. This way the Assault Marine still has an edge as he can buy them right at creation with his 1k points while the others have to wait a couple of sessions IF their really want to.

Also, how are they going to do once the jump into terminator armors that by default has a powerfist and a stormbolter at least ? serio.gif

I was under the impression that the dual wielding talents were only neccessary to employ both weapons at the same time, and that nothing precluded you from having a weapon in each hand - though without the talents you would only be able to attack with one. Nothing in the book I've ever encountered (particularly the section on page 246) suggests these talents are neccessary to carry a weapon in each hand, only to attack with both of them in the same round..

MegaDandy said:

Nothing in the book I've ever encountered (particularly the section on page 246) suggests these talents are neccessary to carry a weapon in each hand, only to attack with both of them in the same round..

this

Technically, you don't need the talent to attack with both in the same round. If you don't have the talent, you take a -20 to hit for each weapon. Without Ambidextrous it would be -20/-40. TWW drops it to -10/-10

That is true BUT in TT all marines (with the proper equipemt) can attack with both a melee weapon and the bolt pistol in melee. That's why we decided to give the ability to do so to all astartes.

Does anyone else think they have the ambidextrous and two-weapon weilder talents switched around?

I always thought ambidextrous was to use the off hand the same as the main hand, but their rules if you just have ambidextrous (which all SM have) then the attack penalty goes from -20/-40% to -10/-30%. Seems like it should what TWW does where it goes from -20/-40% to -20/-20%, and vice versa.

I dont use ranks at all when i GM. I let my players pick what they want. it works great.

Suijin said:

Does anyone else think they have the ambidextrous and two-weapon weilder talents switched around?

I always thought ambidextrous was to use the off hand the same as the main hand, but their rules if you just have ambidextrous (which all SM have) then the attack penalty goes from -20/-40% to -10/-30%. Seems like it should what TWW does where it goes from -20/-40% to -20/-20%, and vice versa.

I find it helps if you look at it like this:

Ambidextrous lets you use either hand equally well which means if you are going to fire a gun you can fire it with your right as easily as you can your left.

OH use in and of itself doesn't suffer a -20 penalty.

Fighting with two weapons at the same time is a combat style not simply a matter of being able to use each hand individually well.

Fighting effectively with two weapons without the benefit of training or being ambidextrous is difficult; -20/-40 you obviously favor your MH.

If you have been trained in two weapon fighting techniques then you can strike with both weapons equally well; -20/-20 you have learned balance.

Being ambidextrous allows one to reduce the penalties for fighting with both the MH and OH; -10/-10 your proclivity toward using either hand uniquely qualifies you for the use of the two weapon fighting styles.

Interesting,

after flipping again through the pages of my Dark Herey rulebook I wondered about this thread title: Why call it Space Marines Talents? Are there any talents that give a Space Marine unique abilites?

"My Space Marine is unnatural fast, he attacks several times in a round..."

"Yes, my Guardsman in DH has also taken Lightning Attack."

sorpresa.gif

And while a Guardsman learns to shoot his rifle while Running (Hip Shooting) at Rank 4, the boldest Space Marine, seconded to the Deathwatch, years of Training with his Bolter ... learns it one Rank earlier? Well that's the reason Space Marines a supersoldiers. serio.gif

So where are these Space Marine talents? Talents, which makes them capable of mighty deeds. Talents, which the ordinary man cannot hope to gain because of his insuffient physiology compared to a Space Marine.

I simply do not get it.

PCs in DH are PCs, not "average Joe Guardsmen". So, take that into account ;)

And then, your Space Marine has Unnatural Strength and Unarmed Mastery (whatever its real name is), which means he packs something like 1d10+8 damage when he hits with his bare hands. Top that, little Guardsman!

He has Unnatural Toughness, making him unbelievably sturdy. He has an average of 40 in all of his stats, which means he isn't a no-brains fighting machine, he's a clever, combat-savvy monster.

Oh, and I forgot Feat of Strength. One turn of 1d10+12 with bare hands. Totally over-the-top.

A Space Marine is awesome because he can always adapt.

And what about something like Unnatural WS or BS then?

Or, on the other hand, can someone explain me why the Tactical Marine benefits from something called Bolter Mastery? I thought the Bolter is the iconic weapon for a Space Marine, so shouldn't every Space Marine, regardles of his specialization, wield this weapon unrivaled?

'Yes, I am specialized as a Devastator, but to be honest Jim, the Tactical Marine, received a better Training with the Bolter...'

Cheers,

TechVoid.

TechVoid said:

And what about something like Unnatural WS or BS then?

Or, on the other hand, can someone explain me why the Tactical Marine benefits from something called Bolter Mastery? I thought the Bolter is the iconic weapon for a Space Marine, so shouldn't every Space Marine, regardles of his specialization, wield this weapon unrivaled?

'Yes, I am specialized as a Devastator, but to be honest Jim, the Tactical Marine, received a better Training with the Bolter...'

Cheers,

TechVoid.

Unnatural WS and BS doesn't technically exist as they don't have a stat bonus,

SM's get traits that aren't available to normal humans, most of the talants are because they are from DH, there wasn't a great need to add a lot more.

there's a difference between training and mastery.

TechVoid said:

Interesting,

after flipping again through the pages of my Dark Herey rulebook I wondered about this thread title: Why call it Space Marines Talents? Are there any talents that give a Space Marine unique abilites?

"My Space Marine is unnatural fast, he attacks several times in a round..."

"Yes, my Guardsman in DH has also taken Lightning Attack."

sorpresa.gif

And while a Guardsman learns to shoot his rifle while Running (Hip Shooting) at Rank 4, the boldest Space Marine, seconded to the Deathwatch, years of Training with his Bolter ... learns it one Rank earlier? Well that's the reason Space Marines a supersoldiers. serio.gif

So where are these Space Marine talents? Talents, which makes them capable of mighty deeds. Talents, which the ordinary man cannot hope to gain because of his insuffient physiology compared to a Space Marine.

I simply do not get it.

Well, Killing Strike is one of them. Unarmed Master will also be hard to get for normal humans. (Temple Assassins of course can learn everything.) And then you have the whole Solo and Squad Mode abilities. Feat of Strength, Blood Frenzy, Holy Vengeance.

That said, the whole of 40K Roleplay doesn't try to simulate the game world. DW and DH are different games and only designed to be roughly compatible.

Also: DH Guardsmen aren't Guardsmen, the are formerly-Guardsmen acolytes in the service of an Inquisitor.

Alex

Face Eater said:

Unnatural WS and BS doesn't technically exist as they don't have a stat bonus,

Well, but that is just part of the ability of unnatural stats. Every Test is one level easier and for opposed tests (maybe even BS vs. Dodge) you get an extra DoS.

Cheers,

TechVoid.

Of course, but that is already included. A Space Marine starts with something like 40 in BS and WS (as I already mentionned), which is high.

It includes the "Unnatural WS/BS" in a way (though the difference is subtle, yet present).

TechVoid said:

"My Space Marine is unnatural fast, he attacks several times in a round..."

"Yes, my Guardsman in DH has also taken Lightning Attack."

sorpresa.gif

I simply do not get it.

So give all space marines two weapon wielder, lightning attack, demolitions, dodge +20, survival +20, mighty shot, cleanse and burn, bolter mastery, unrelenting devestation, every hatred talent, concealment +20, silent move +20 and all the other skills. Because after all; space marines are supposed to be better than everyone else, have all been scouts, and any non-SW tactical marine has also been an assault marine and devestator, too.

DW is an RPG with progression, and that requires that even though PCs are obscenely good to start with, they are massively under-skilled compared to what they 'should' have. Otherwise, there would be no skills left for everyone to buy after three scenarios. There's no fun playing a game where XP doesn't really drastically improve the PC over time.

DW is an RPG with progression, and that requires that even though PCs are obscenely good to start with, they are massively under-skilled compared to what they 'should' have. Otherwise, there would be no skills left for everyone to buy after three scenarios. There's no fun playing a game where XP doesn't really drastically improve the PC over time.

This.

There is nothing stopping anyone from roleplaying the TT game if they wish, but DW is designed to provide the enjoyment of improving your character over an extended campaign rather than just simulate what a Space Marine should have for a single skirmish.