Yeah, definetly looks like a problem to me. Especially since the Bolter has a pretty economic full-auto and fire selectors come standart anyways, trivialising the ammo conservation argument a bit imo.

To me it´s a problem in terms "action durations" and giving each attack mode its niche.

Assuming you have a full action, what can you do with each attack mode?

Single shot: half action aim + shot; called shot

Semi-auto (bolter): +10 to hit, additional hits every 2 DoS (max 2 hits per burst). So here we have basically a single shot that may hit twice and includes a half action aim. Conclusion: half action aim + single shot is useless.

Full-auto (bolter): +20 to hit, additional hits every DoS (max 4 in total). A full action aim + single shot + up to 3 additional hits. Technically that´s 1 and a half action in one + possible additional hits. Conclusion: well, doesn´t need expaination...

So here´s are my thoughts about how to change that a bit. The goal is to give each firing mode its niche and purpose. Since I´m a bit new to the system and the thoughts come a bit spontaneous they may be flawed (like not considering advanced talents, forgetting about something,..). but here´s my go.

Single shots:

What´s their niche, what do we expect from them. Let´s go with accurate fire and called shots.

To emphasise that I went by improving the aim action and altering called shots a bit.

Aim action: grants +30 BS for full action and +20 for half. (<- does not appy to melee)

Called shot: is now a half-action but the difficulty is increased to very hard (-30). (<- does not apply to melee, adjust deadeye shot talent)

Conclusion: and aimed single shot is now the most accurate ranged attack, you can now aim and make a called shot in one turn.

Semiautomatic burst :

+10 BS, +20 at short range, (no bonus if the distance to the exceeds the weapons range); addional hit every DoS.

Our bread and Butter firing mode at higher ranges.

Full-auto burst:

+10 BS at short range (note: this is <75m with a Heavy Bolter); additional hit every DoS, additional hit every 2 DoS if the target is further away than short range.

So, what do you think? On a last note, I do not think that this is final or something but on any changes I´ll make, I´d emphasise on the same things.

So basically: Single shot -> accuracy, called shots. Semi burst -> standart bread´n butter firing mode, Full-auto -> short range mayhem.

If I do anything on the Heavy Bolter specifically, I´d probably emphasise on suppression.

moepp said:

Their niche is you not having a full action to spend. Or having no weapon capable of auto fire. Or you wanting to conserve ammo. Or you want to avoid collateral damages.

moepp said:

You can afford a full action attack but don't want to spend more rounds for whatever reason.

moepp said:

If you want the xeno to be dead, dead and really dead, then burst. Or sth like that.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yeah which is rather unsatisfying for quite some people (including me) as it seems. As it makes single shots and semi-bursts quite useless in many situations, thus limiting your options, thus dulling down the gaming experience regarding combats. Combat doesn´t need to be uber realistic, but when it´s so illogical that it takes away from the immersion it´s borked. Immersion is everything in an RPG. Just my oppinion.

moepp said:

I've done similar fixing in other systems and I've found it to be over-valued. Plus, if something detracts from the experience I tend to rather fix it on the fly.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Also note that single shots have a smaller chance of jamming than semi- or full-auto attacks.

Well yes, and if you don´t have a gun to begin with, you can´t jam at all...

Sry for that little line of sarcasm but all that talk about ammo conservation and jamming risks aren´t exactly putting any more value into those firing modes other than full auto.

If you´re content with the situation as it is, it´s fine, it´s ok, nothing to say against that.

But trying to talk more value into these things by stating the obvious and making them sound better than they are, isn´t exactly helpful. Single shot, and semi bursts are inferior to full auto for all intents and purposes. Well ok, single shots can be used for called shots, but it´s questionable whether it isn´t just better to get yourself into a position from where you can full-auto away next turn instead. Semi burst is just useless, especially when your full auto is "super eco mode" and only using up 4 rounds.

Full auto is most accurate and most damaging in one, if that isn´t just crying "WRONG!!" into your face, idk. If you care for mechanics that is...

If you're playing the game as an ego-shooter with unlimited ammo, sure. If you're playing a kill-team with limited ressources behind enemy lines that is supposed to hold out for weeks until they are extracted, ammo conservation and weapon reliability might be considered important as well - especially considering that by RAW, a jam wastes an entire clip.

Cifer said:

Which seems odd too, dunno how weapons jam in 41st millenium but as far as my limited experience goes a common jam only wastes one bullet (the one that jams).

At any rate, you´re right.

I´m not saying the combat rules are flawed per se (there´s just too much personal opinion for that), I´m just saying they don´t fullfill my expectations. Just using up more bullets isn´t enough in my book.

I just need that - full auto = more bang, less accuracy; semi = less bang, more accuracy; single = least bang, most accuracy - sort of thing to feel well. That full auto also has the most accuracy is just so revolting to me.

In most game mechanics the danger of using full auto is wasting shots due to missing at high ranges, here it seems more shots get wasted due to overkill rather than missing.

If you use a single shot with BS 40, you´ll get one hit at 40 or less. I you use full auto and you roll less than 40 you get 3-4 hits. Even if you take aim and shoot the full auto mode is still more accurate and will be a least one hit ahead on even results.

I don't quite understand the argument "well, if you're playing in a campaign where you're going to be out alone and unsupported behind enemy lines for weeks".

Everything that I've read about the Deathwatch seems to imply they they are highly supported specialists who are tasked with jobs that are too difficult, or too dangerous for the regular Imperial Army or the Inquisition. I think of them like SWAT teams (special weapons and tactics). They don't just cruise around in their armored cars busting scumbags willy nilly all over the city. They should be highly trained and motivated individuals who are called upon for specific threats and targets which fall outside of normal military engagements. They have better equipment, transports, and weapons than what is normally available to an Imperial world, and should be used sparingly and decisively.

Long, protracted campaigns are just not what I imagine them to be doing. Regular space marine chapters are probably more likely to engage in this scenario. But not Deathwatch.

Deathwatch are less SWAT and more Marines/SEALS/whatever. They seldom operate in friendly territory. They are sent where you can't just bring an army along - and where it may be hard to exfiltrate them. A typical Deathwatch mission might be getting inserted on a tau planet that the Imperial Guard is attacking. Do you put them on the front lines? No, you deep-strike them with a drop-pod directly into the territory held by the xeno scum and next to the headquarters containing the Ethereal whose death could turn the tide of the entire planetary assault. Do you think the tau will let a thunderhawk land nearby to collect them afterwards? I think it's more probable they'll have to make their way back to their lines on their own, scoring targets of opportunity when feasible.