Suijin said:

If you read it like that, and only apply size modifiers to shooting, you are definitely shafting the melee guy. But, although the Size heading does have the line about shooting, it does not say they do not apply to melee. The bonus/penalty chart with the +10 bonus is an example, not an exclusion. It does say 'Attacking' in other examples, but if you restrict size modifiers to shooting only, then yes, you might as well tell your Assault marines to pack up and go home.

Why would it be easier to shoot a Enormous Hive Tyrant from 100m than hit it with a sword? The fact that it's bigger should make it easier for both options.

For hordes, melee should get the bonus as well. If there are so many combatants that you can't dodge their attacks, there are enough opponents that you would be hard pressed to miss them with every swing.

And one comment on your power fist comment, while not balanced, lightning claws allow a parry and, depending on do 1d10-(6- unaugmented SB) less damage before adding the +1 damage per DoS and is Tearing. The fist wins for Max damage, but the claw is really close and has a higher RF chance with Flesh Render.

Suijin said:

Ah, you are wrong there, it took us a while to find it, but checkout page 134 under size. It also says there: "Size affects how easy or hard it is to strike that creature in combat"

And see page 359 about how easy a horde is to be hit. Nowhere does it say that this only counts for BS. It speaksof tho hit which implies both melee and ranged combat.

It is a shame that they didn't put these rules into the combat section though. That would have caused less confusion.

Ps. You can use a Powerfist in one hand and a balanced Chainsword in the other. Benefitting from good parying and amazing damage.

Radomo said:

Mostly I was just stating a RAW ruling on the size modifier. Any GM can do whatever they want. The description for size is fairly short and its wording does specifically only include ranged weapons. I see no ambiguity RAW for melee, as it doesn't even say in the size description anywhere that it applies to an "attack". It does specifically say that "Size is an important factor when shooting ranged weapons".

Even the DH rules state the same language.

I have not thought out which way I will play it in my game. I was just not aware the rule was stated that way.

Sister Callidia said:

Actually I am not wrong about the horde section. It says to treat as you would an individual, so really anything there has no bearing on the rule either way, other than you should do it the same for individuals and hordes. That was all I said about that section, and that the modifier it is referring to is a size modifer to-hit (which it is).

Under traits in DH it states things the same as the page 134 in DW.

Overall, if it does apply to both melee and ranged then it is crappy to have the description in the Combat section for size exclude melee (which would be the predominant place anyone would ever look at to-hit modifiers).

About powerfist and chainsword combos, you had to "spend" something to get there. Meanwhile ranged also gets to "spend" something to be better also. I stated you basically come out even in that case.

Suijin said:

Just because a target is large, it doesn't mean you can easily hit it in melee where it hurts.

Alex

ak-73 said:

But it does for shooting?

Radomo said:

Otoh, the Marines aren't exactly little either.

Alex

Suijin said:

I agree that it is a bit of an oversight that they did not post these things in the comat section.

page 359 says:
Hordes should be treated as a single vast individual.

Under Attacking hordes: The appropriate size modifier should be used based on the hordes magnitude.

It is stated here that this goes for attacking, you do not see anywhere on this page that this only applies to BS

If you're going to be fighting in open area- with no penalties to shooting you're going to have a throw a lot of horde at the marines. The heavy bolter with unrelenting devastation is incredibly powerful at dealing with hordes. It's quite easy to add obstacles or related scenery that adds penalties to shooting. Thick brush, fog, mist, or even in darkness can all be added easily. Encounters can also occur in cramped spaces, leading these ranged marines to be forced into combat.

Also I've been trying to use creative ways of utilizing every squad member. If the space marines are exploring a refinery to find their objective in the midst of a tyranid invasion, have a situation where the ranged units needs to focus on oncoming swarms, while the melee portion has to fight tyranids that have close to immediate access to the group. A segment in the game alien swarm reminded me of a neats scenario where the team is descending an elevator. As you descend, you can see the aliens ascending the walls up to the level of the open elevator. Other aliens appeared out of vents and passages moving directly onto the elevator. The team would have to focus on the immediate threat while trying to weaken the numbers of tyranids ascending to their level. If the ranged specialist become tired up in the immediate threat, the team is going to be overrun in the long term. Just as the team is slowly gaining control of the situation, throw an elite in there that can either be focused, allowing the weaker tyranids to regain the advantage, or have the elite creature reach them as they try to finish off the oncoming swam.

In some test I've done Devastator and Tactical marines, if they manage to become engaged in the melee conflict will definately not deal as much damage as the assault marines with the benefit of his talents. I'm not sure, by if they are against a horde and are unable to dodge or parry, I believe they don't have an effective way to using this reaction action while assault marines. This might only be for blood angels- but the furious assault talent let's them dump this reaction for an extra attack.

As to the debate between parry and dodge don't forget that dodge can be affecting by the current terrain. Mud, Deep Snow, Swamp are all environments where this would affect the character.

For example on the extraction campaign, the terrain is all rocky crags, uneven ground manipulated by the constant industrial refining slowly destroying the land around it. Construction vehicles leave upturned soil, as the refining process could also leave by-product in the form of slag. All these could make the terrain difficult to manoeuvre in.. This is all compounded as the tyranid invasion also begins manipulating the land. I'd say as he party nears the final hour the planet's visual change is becoming increasingly apparent. Tyranis structures of biomass begin manifesting. Looking at the missions in Dawn of War 2 for some inspiration, strange "plantlife", green mists, and pools of strange tyranid liquid begin forming on the planet before being consumed. I could easily see this as becoming increasingly difficult for characters relying on ranged attacks and dodging.

After all this- I still find that the astartes heavy bolter is just so much of a beast. The player in my group managed to roll a 20 for BS, resulting in a 50 and he has no trouble chewing through the wounds of any elite or horde. Even with a -20 for shooting into melee, he usually manages to pull of amazing total ballistic skills. As other have mentioned, rules like righteous fury make things very very difficult to scale to the parties power. I've been running some test scenarios against a simulated group to try and figure out what a good size of enemies are and it's still not clear to me.

ak-73 said:

Your point?

Black Carapace specifically counteracts the Marine's size through increasing their reactions.

"Just because a target is large, doesn't mean you can easily shoot it where it hurts." How is this statement less valid than yours regarding melee?

If you only apply size modifiers to shooting, you're artificially skewing things toward shooting. Since 40k has been heavily skewed to having strong melee combat for a number of editions, making it significantly weaker in the RPG makes no sense.

Tidomann said:

Have to agree here. I was running Final Sanction using the full rules, requisition, etc. and so I bumped the size of the hordes in the initial engagement. The marines easily cleared two mag 40 hordes before they could even shoot. The Heavy Weapon turning point was only able to shoot due to me giving them an surprise attack on the turn they arrived.

Hordes seem very hard to balance. Unless they are fearless, etc. they are very easy to break, pin, or otherwise trivialize, but if they are large enough to survive more than a turn or two, they get an overwhelming number of attacks.

Radomo said:

It means they are large enough to punch another fairly large creature in the face.

Alex

Sister Callidia said:

Nor does it state it applies to melee. As both of us have said, it really only says to do the same for hordes as for an individual.

Suijin said:

Yes, attacking a horde is the same as attacking an individual. The size of the 'horde' individual depends on it's magnitude. And we have learned from the earlier page that size is a trait that gives a bonus to hit in melee AND in ranged combat.

-Melee verses Ranged 2.0-

Melee (Chainsword)
A) Must often move and then attack (moving is a half-action, multiple attacks is a full-action)
B) No bonuses to hit
C) Hits once per attack
D) Does 1d10+3 damage compared to the "normal" 1d10+2 damage
E) Two (2) chances to activate Righteous Fury (50% less)
F) Can be attached to a bolter
G) Tactical Marines are a melee character class, and do not get a bolter
H) In Rogue Trader Bolters are better than Chainswords by +3 damage
I) Deathwatch has a character class who iconically use Chainswords and the power difference between bolters and chainswords is huge

Range (Bolter)
A) Can often attack without moving (moving is a half-action, multiple attacks is a full-action)
B) Routinely +30 to hit
C) Hits 1-4 times per attack
D) Does 2d10+5 damage compared to the "normal" 1d10+5 damage
E) Three (3) chances to activate Righteous Fury (50% more).
F) Can attach a chainsword melee weapon
G) Everyone but a Tactical Marine gets a bolter
H) In Deathwatch bolters are better than Chainswords by 1d10+2 damage
I) Rogue Trader does not have a character class who iconically use Chainswords and the power difference between bolters and chainswords is small

The result is a situation where a Tactical Marine would be FAR MORE EFFECTIVE with a boltgun. That does not seem to jive with the TT and lore versions of Tactical Marines.

-Let's list some givens-
1) Space Marines are smart.
2) A-I above should reflect this notion.
3) Given A-I above, not equipping a bolter is stupid.
3a) If you answer "for melee" . . . you can put a chainsword melee attachment on a bolter.
3b) If you answer anything about it being hard to swing a melee weapon with a pistol grip . . . Space Marines can lift a car . . ..
3c) If you answer that it is unwieldy . . . then go to google, click images in the upper left, enter "ebberon 3.5 cover" and look at the guy on the cover. Use the same idea for a bolter/chainsword.

Please help me see what I am missing.
1) Why are bolters so much more powerful than chainswords?
2) Why have Tactical Marines?
3) Why don't Tactical Marines get boltguns?
3a) If you answer "for melee" . . . you can put a chainsword melee attachment on a bolter.
3b) If you answer anything about it being hard to swing a melee weapon with a pistol grip . . . Space Marines can lift a car . . ..
3c) If you answer that it is unwieldy . . . then go to google, click images in the upper left, enter "ebberon 3.5 cover" and look at the guy on the cover. Use the same idea for a bolter/chainsword.
4) Why do Tactical Marines have to wait till 5-8 ranks to be able to buy X talents in order for their melee skills to equal a starting gear bolter?
5) Why give Blood Angles the extra chainsword damage dice, and not give Tactical Marines the same option with the classes iconic weapon?
6) Are bolters this much more powerful than chainswords in the TT?

darkrose50 said:

Melee:
B) Bonusses: Charging +10, Friends in Combat +10, Exceptional weaponry +5 or better, Size modifier+10 or better, aim action +10, Hatred +10 etc.
Routinely is is not that hard to get a +60 to hit.
C) And can be dodged/parried, however much less trouble with cover.
D) Chainsword does D10+13 damage, reroll the D10 for better result. Not to shabby
F) Attached to a Bolter makes it lose it's Balanced ability, which is rather neat. So unless you have dual wielder Ranged weaponry why not use a Chainsword instead?
G) You mean Assault Marine. But they can requisition a Bolter if they like for just a few points.

Ranged:
A) But doing so makes them vulnerable to enemy fire (shudder to consider a horde armed with the lowly autopistol (up to 6 hits with 3d10+2!)
B) +60 is also common I am afraid. +10 Half,range, +20 Full auto, +30 Horde size.
D) 2D10+5 against D10+13 (much closer now)
F) Be smart, pay 10 RC for Chainsword with insta lock thingie so you get the balanced parry option when you need it.
G) Well, there is the Devestator.... But he gets an even nastier weapon.
I) In RT, every RT walks around with a Powersword.

Questions:
I assume you mean Assault Marines everywhere.

Basic assault marines start with Swift Strike, with Lightning Strioke at level 2. They get Dual melee weapon and various Hatreds to hit. When they are in Melee combat they hit often,are safe to enemy fire and near immune to enemy attacks because they parry almost everything. Master Signature Wargear is nasty for melee as are the various talents he can learn.

Assault marines will grab the Power Sword as soon as they are Respected, doing even more ridiculous damage.

I have seen level 3 marines in Action. It was disgusting. The Assault Marine had 4 attacks, usually each at +60 to hit and a Parry that also went close to 100% Outside of melee, he used twin Bolters to pour in the fire as well.

darkrose50 said:

So many issues here... Let's go through them.

A). Sure, although Charge gives them a fairly large range, especially with Jump Pack and Wings of Angels. A basic Assault marine has a 30m charge, going to 50 with Wings. Bump his Ag by one and you have 56m charge or 92m run. That's pretty far.

B.) Frenzy, Feint, and All Out attack give increased chance to hit (feint via preventing dodges). I agree there should be some +WS wargear to balance the scopes, targeters, etc. Not sure what that would be, but it should exist. I'd probably give all Balanced weapons +5 WS when attacking on top of craftsmanship mods.

C.) When facing a single opponent, yes, but vs a horde they get +1 hit per 2 DoS. The Power weapon +1 is just a counter for the X from bolters. It would probably be reasonable to give Tearing melee weapons +1 as well (chewing a dude up with a chainsaw might be a bit disconcerting), going to +2 for Power, but they wouldn't stack (lightning claws).

D.) Does 1d10+3 + SB, which is pretty huge for marines. An average marine is doing 1d10+13 out the gate. Comparing to a basic chainsword, that is not much of a bump. maybe give them a further +2 or so.

E.) There is Flesh Render, but then you get to power weapons. Power swords and axes only get to roll one die, so that's kind of crap.

F.) Only applicable for chainswords. Power weapons are much better and can't be attached to ranged weapons.

G.) Typo. Assault marines, but requisitioning a bolter is stupid cheap, so I don't think it's much of a burden. If you're playing an assault marine, you probably didn't want to stand back and shoot anyway.

H.) 'k

I.) It's big, but not amazing. Bolter does 2d10+5 Tearing, Pen 4. Chainsword does 1d10+13 Tearing, Pen 4. So, it's 1d10 vs 8 static damage. One additional RF chance. This is countered by making the logical change to DH RF instead of the stupidly broken DW version. Full auto has to be compared to Multiple attacks. Out the gate, the bolter wins at 4 vs 2. But, by Rank 2 it's even at 4 each. Well, then there's Bolter Drill...

Bolter stuff

A.) Sure, but as shown above single attack vs single isn't that far off, and Full auto vs multi attack is on par as well.

B.) Already mentioned that melee could use a to-hit bonus.

C.) already covered. 1 v 1 or 4 v 4, it's not that far off.

D.) Again, covered. The melee increase is mostly in the marines Unnatural Str rather than improved weapon.

E.) Given ranged is better here. Again, use DH RF and it's not a huge deal.

F.) You're repeating.

G.) Typo again. Assault marines don't want to stand around and shoot with a bolter.

H.) Again, you're wrong. Bolters vs Chainswords is 1d10 vs 8 or more. It's not hard to start with a SB of 12-13, putting it at 1d10 vs 10-11.

I'm getting bored, so I'm going to skip some of these.

3a-c) One handed use of a melee attachment is a.) not iconic b.) require a custom weapon (i.e. Req/Renown requirements. see Forearm mounting) c.) an issue of leverage, not strength.

Finally.

1.) they aren't. RF, specialty ammo, and the few rounds it takes an assault marine to close are their only clear winning areas. The to-hit bonuses should be evened via wargear options and fixing RF. Base damage is very close.

2.-6) You're just repeating yourself. BA get Flesh render because it is iconic for them, and only comes into play until power weapons are available, possibly resurfacing late game. When the normal Assaults are rolling with power fists and thunder hammers, the BAs might choose lightning claws. They need FR to keep them competitive.

The majority of the issue is DW's broken RF system and lack of melee boosting wargear/to-hit mods. Both of those are not hard to fix.

Melee: can in many combat situations, cities, jungles, space hulks, etc. force their preferred way of fighting on the opposition. If your kill-team encounters fire warriors at a fairly short distance, you make the encounter into a melee combat without them being able to do much about it.

And that trumps many points listed.

Alex

darkrose50 said:

As with other posters I assume you are referring to Assualt marines rather than Tactical marines in your post.

1) A bolter won't help you very much if the enemy is already in your face. Bolters are good, but that doesn't mean everything else in the game is rubbish.

2) Because not all combats are done at 200m across an open field.

3) They don't need one they have a handy jump pack instead.

3a) Bolters cannot be used in melee, a chainsword attachment still won't let you shoot the enemy in the face.

3b/c) I don't see either being a problem but the melee attachment is supposed to used like a bayonet. A bolter with chain bayonet still runs the risk of being totally destroyed by a power field, then you're unarmed compared to the Assault Marines standard loadout.

4) They don't, a rank 1 Assualt Marine can out damage a bolter simply by being in situations where the bolter cannot be used (and they do still have a very handy bolt pistol).

5) It's not really an issue, BAs are a bit nuts. Saner Assault Marines start going for the power weapons at later levels.

6) In the TT an Assault marine will get an extra attack in CC for having to close combat weapons. A bolter is "more powerful" in the TT as it gets an AP rating that isn't used in the Assualt phase. However, imho, comparing the TT to the RPG isn't really all that useful as the two are designed for very different things.

The biggest issue I've had making some characters is the talent Signature Wargear (master). If you get your main weapon with this, then you can get +10 to attack. The issue comes down to what ranged vs melee weapons you can get for 40 requisition:

Master-Crafted Heavy Bolter = 40

Master-Crafted Storm Bolter = 40

Master-Crafted Power Sword = 40

Master-Crafted Power Axe = 40

Common Power Fist = 30

Common Lightning Claw = 30

Common Thunder Hammer = 30

Maybe some of this is coming down to bolters being so good, and you getting them right out of the gate. If I look at the "higher" end range weapons, then you can only get common with them also. Most of this is probably the performance difference spread from start to high end of melee vs ranged weapons. I am going to run some test combats with different marines to see what the deal is. That is where I ran into the signature wargear thing.

I don't know why I shouldn't just take either Storm Bolter or Heavy Bolter as a Master-Craft and add other options with Req for the mission, no matter even if you are playing an assault marine. The more I look at it the more it seems melee is weaker at the start and catches up later, but it seems you still need to "spend" more to get to the same place.

Unless I'm missing something, maybe I am, I would like at the high end of the game to have artificer armor (only possible at rank 7 unless you are a tech marine) and another weapon with signature wargear (master). As it is all you have left is the regular signature wargear at rank 5 after the artificer armor.

Also how does anyone ever buy terminator armor, unless you have enough req from mission (total death mission) to buy it with that req.

I think termie armor is generally given only when needed, so you'll get the Req if the mission warrants it.

For signature wargear, there was a post in the house rules forum changing the signature talents to 25xp per Req, so you could take exceptional or master crafted power fists for a smallish xp tax against master. This also opens the possibility for cheaper signature items. i.e. Exceptional bolters in the 200 xp range. I think this is a good change that evens things out a bit.

As for melee vs Ranged, you're right in that melee starts much weaker than Ranged. Melee has to wait for power weapons to get their equivalent to the bolter's '+1 for X damage.' They need WS advances to catch up with the +20-30 to-hit ranged weapons generally get. Chainswords are almost even with a bolter on a per round basis, but ranged get 4 shots right off the bat, while melee needs to get rank 2 and two talents to match that (Lightning Attack, Two Weapon), and they take a -10 penalty on each hit, putting them -30 to -40 vs the equivalent full auto burst..

They'll never beat a Dev for attacking a horde (and shouldn't really, although, depending on how you stack things, it may be close at rank 8), but they might keep up with the bolter toting marines after a few ranks. Stormbolters probably shift things back to ranged on average.

Assault marines still have their niche. From a pure mechanics aspect, ranged is pretty dominant.

These are the rules I would use if I were running . . .

-Signature Wargear-
1) 25 XP per requisition point of the base item.

2) 25 XP per requisition point in modifications (including exceptional and master quality).

3) Quality (a type of modification)

3a) Exceptional quality Wargear increases the requisition cost by 5-requisition per prerequisite rank (Initiated [5], Respected [10], Distinguished [15], Famed [20] and Hero [25]).

3b) Master quality Wargear increases the requisition cost by 10-requisition per prerequisite rank (Initiated [10], Respected [20], Distinguished [30], Famed [40] and Hero [50]).

4) Limitations

4a) Signature Wargear is limited to a maximum of 15-points of modifications. Renown requirements for Exceptional Wargear are waved.

4b) Signature Wargear (Master) is limited to a maximum of 35-points of modifications. Renown requirements for Master Wargear are waved. The experience spent on Signature Wargear (Master) replaces that of the experience spent on Signature Wargear (the difference is paid).

4c) Signature Wargear (Hero) is limited to a maximum of 65-points of modifications. Renown requirements for Hero Wargear are waved. The experience spent on Signature Wargear (Hero) replaces that of the experience spent on Signature Wargear (Master) (the difference is paid).

For the people talking about Terminator Armour... You can't run in it, and therefore you're unable to charge, which kinda limits your melee range and number of attacks from Swift/Lightning. Which makes it better Range wise... Especially with an Assault Cannon.

If the book had something on Terminator Teleport Packs, kinda like the ones in Dawn of War 2... Then we'd be talking business.

KellionBane said:

You cannot Run. The capital 'R' is important. Move actions are Half, Full, Charge, and Run. There is no restriction on Charging in Terminator armor.

KellionBane said:

You could use the rules for the one from Into the Storm if you wanted. I'd probably ditch the corruption/insanity and juice up the number of meters you teleport, but it's probably fair enough.