-Melee verses Ranged 2.0-

Melee (Chainsword)
A) Must often move and then attack (moving is a half-action, multiple attacks is a full-action)
B) No bonuses to hit
C) Hits once per attack
D) Does 1d10+3 damage compared to the "normal" 1d10+2 damage
E) Two (2) chances to activate Righteous Fury (50% less)
F) Can be attached to a bolter
G) Tactical Marines are a melee character class, and do not get a bolter
H) In Rogue Trader Bolters are better than Chainswords by +3 damage
I) Deathwatch has a character class who iconically use Chainswords and the power difference between bolters and chainswords is huge

Range (Bolter)
A) Can often attack without moving (moving is a half-action, multiple attacks is a full-action)
B) Routinely +30 to hit
C) Hits 1-4 times per attack
D) Does 2d10+5 damage compared to the "normal" 1d10+5 damage
E) Three (3) chances to activate Righteous Fury (50% more).
F) Can attach a chainsword melee weapon
G) Everyone but a Tactical Marine gets a bolter
H) In Deathwatch bolters are better than Chainswords by 1d10+2 damage
I) Rogue Trader does not have a character class who iconically use Chainswords and the power difference between bolters and chainswords is small

The result is a situation where a Tactical Marine would be FAR MORE EFFECTIVE with a boltgun. That does not seem to jive with the TT and lore versions of Tactical Marines.

-Let's list some givens-
1) Space Marines are smart.
2) A-I above should reflect this notion.
3) Given A-I above, not equipping a bolter is stupid.
3a) If you answer "for melee" . . . you can put a chainsword melee attachment on a bolter.
3b) If you answer anything about it being hard to swing a melee weapon with a pistol grip . . . Space Marines can lift a car . . ..
3c) If you answer that it is unwieldy . . . then go to google, click images in the upper left, enter "ebberon 3.5 cover" and look at the guy on the cover. Use the same idea for a bolter/chainsword.

Please help me see what I am missing.
1) Why are bolters so much more powerful than chainswords?
2) Why have Tactical Marines?
3) Why don't Tactical Marines get boltguns?
3a) If you answer "for melee" . . . you can put a chainsword melee attachment on a bolter.
3b) If you answer anything about it being hard to swing a melee weapon with a pistol grip . . . Space Marines can lift a car . . ..
3c) If you answer that it is unwieldy . . . then go to google, click images in the upper left, enter "ebberon 3.5 cover" and look at the guy on the cover. Use the same idea for a bolter/chainsword.
4) Why do Tactical Marines have to wait till 5-8 ranks to be able to buy X talents in order for their melee skills to equal a starting gear bolter?
5) Why give Blood Angles the extra chainsword damage dice, and not give Tactical Marines the same option with the classes iconic weapon?
6) Are bolters this much more powerful than chainswords in the TT?

-----
Is this a problem? If so then here are some possible solutions:

A) Assault Marines can make a Pilot (Personal) check as a free-action in order to move up to 20m and make a full-attack, else they can move and make a single attack as normal.
B) Assault Marines can buy the talent "Tenacious Strike (x5)" for 100 XP. This allows the Assault Marine to re-roll a WS attack once per battle as a free-action.
C) Assault Marines can buy "Vicious Slash (x5)" for 100 XP. As a full-attack the Assault Marine damages up-to four areas as per a full-Auto attack once per battle.

darkrose50 said:

Use something like a power weapon. You'll typically hit harder with that one hit. Also handy for things that like to get up close and personal like hive tyrants.

I look at the 2d10+5 damage . . .

. . . without a need to move . . .

. . . with +30 to hit . . .

. . . with a chance of four (4) hits . . .

. . . and look at the melee weapons . . .

. . . and wounder about the game balance.

I will continue to play my melee character, and have fun, but it does not look balanced.

BaronIveagh said:

Or better, get Signature Wargear (Maser) and get yourself a Daemonhammer. Handy against everything

Against Hordes melee gets an additional hit for every two successes. Not much help, but hey.

I looked in the corebook. What page is the Demonhammer on?

In WH40K (the wargame), Bolt weapons are above-average standard weapons, while Power Fists are terrifying specialty weapons with the power to destroy tanks with one blow. -But with the damage for 'Astartes' Bolt weapons drastically increased over their Dark Heresy counterparts, it seems to me that Power Fists in Deathwatch have become a very ineffective weapon in the Space Marine arsenal...

Adeptus-B said:

Without arguing about actual balance, Astartes bolt weapons are not the same as bolt weapons designed for normal humans. The game doesn´t go much into detail but astartes bolters are much bigger, suggesting a larger calibre of bolt ammo (since muzzle and clips don´t look undersized).

Bolter calibres is one of many things the 40k lore doesn´t go into detail about. Yet it is suggesting the existence of such differences since muzzles, clips or loose projectiles on ammo chains always match the size of the weapon.

My take on it:

In terms of calibre size: Human sized Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Stormbolters, etc... -> Astartes Bolters, Bolt Pistols, etc... -> Heavy Bolters (I don´t think miniatures or paintings suggest any size differences here). The calibre size difference between normal- and astartes sized weapons is not backed up by any official source I know of. It´s just how I handle it in my games.

Lexicanum however states that Bolters use .75 calibre rounds while Heavy Bolters use 1.00 calibre rounds.

moepp said:

One option would be to say that the round is still 0.75, but has superior material that increases the damage outcome. Some wacky religious dude spent a day crafting one round with the best possible materials.

Mithras said:

Ascension page 141

My take on Astartes Bolt Weapons is that they have bigger longer charges, but with the same calibre (0.75 diameter) than bolt weapons for others. Sort of Bolter Magnum charges.

I think, in the debate of ranged vs melee, ranged weapons may seem supreme damage wise but the enemy can do the same to you. Also the best ranged weapons are of course useless once in combat. However once in combat the durability and strength of the Spacemarines gives them an edge.

semiauto and melee against hordes have the same additional hits (melee has no limit though)

firing on semi auto and full attack are both full actions

a boltgun will shoot once an assault marine (with Swift attack as standard) will attack twice

ranged 2D10+5 Damage; melee 1D0+3+SB(8ish)

It looks like when a combat will drag on melee will do more damage as swift attack will make you cause more hits and cumilativeley cause more damge

3x 2D10+5 = 6D10+15; VS; 6x 1D10+3+(8) = 6D10+66 (Assuming SB 4)

I think the key is flexibility. Neither range or closecombat are better than each other. But a flexible team with ranged and close abilities would be hard to stop. Ranged fire to weaken a horde so close combat can finish it off.

Rely on range get overwhelmed when they get to close. Rely on melee get pounded from a distance.

Why the comparison with semi-auto. I mean it kinda sucks compared to full-auto, especially with Bolters which have a pretty economical full-auto. Ammo restrictions in combat are kinda trivial too, since everyone and his mother starts out with a fire selector and can load 3 clips at once.

On the bright side for melee though, you forgot to factor in the strength bonus of the power armour. It´d actually be 6 x 1d10+3+(10) assuming SB:4.

At least if the characters are still low, ranged will always fare better if the environment is suitable for it. But then again, it´s a sci-fi game and there´s reason why humans have invented firearms. That being said the assault marine has a gun too...

Godwyn pattern bolter is .996 calibre, heavy bolter is 1.0 or 25.4mm, which is the current standard issue for Astartes.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/bolter.

Cheers.

Oops, meant .998, hit the wrong key.

Unfortunately, the Deathwatch armory section repeats the .75 caliber listing. I'm not sure the canon level of Forge World products, which is where the .998 value comes from, I believe.

The games I play have a tendency to start off at fairly close ranges, ending up in melee brawls within a few rounds. I agree with the earlier statement: your team needs to have a good balance between CC and ranged combatants. Reliance on either one too heavily will result in catastrophic situations where you were caught unprepared.

The boltgun is "998. Model Bolter: Godwyn Pattern". The fullstop is after the number, and a pre-cursor to 'M41' signifying the date of operational commencement. It is a .75 calibre weapon. (Pattern info from Codex: Space Marines, calibre info from Black Library/DW Core)

On topic: Melee will always lag behind ranged, as it's a human, or in this case superhuman, powered attack compared to mechanical ordinance. It only starts drawing even when you go up against Hive Tyrants and the like, specially equipped and designed gribbly monsters.

A horde of Hormagaunts could seriously injure (4D10+5, pen 3 - avg 25 pen 3) a Space Marine (armour + avg TB = 12) but that's without having to mention them running at you and suffering the Heavy Bolter + Metal Storm build everyone seems to love

However, if you're fighting at range, and only have a sword, tactically it would make no sense to shoot you (unless you're the Librarian) so firepower should/would be focused on the guys with guns, leaving you to charge through a building wall or whatever, get some cover, and flank the hostile heavy weapons team before applying hard metal to squishy flesh.

A close combat build is more than possible, excelling at single target takedowns. You just have to be sensible when it comes to the hordes.

Adeptus-B said:

You forget about the triple bonus with using a powerfist, assuming 50 str, that's a +15 damage with pen 8. For a total of 2d10+15 damage. On a minimum of 17 damage, you're going to seriously mess things up.

What really sucks is the ubiquitous Fire Selector and Hellfire with Kraken back-up load out.

Yeah, all those +modifiers to hit make all those Melee guys a touch envious, but just on a standard bolter, with standard ammo - I could live with it. When you factor in that your bolter holds 3 clips (so no concern on ammo) - so full auto just about every shot, coupled with Hellfire, which invokes Righteous Fury on 9's or 10's - and you get a SCARY amount of damage output. Then, you add in all the + modifiers to hit from ranged, the fact that you dont have to move to attack, and then, just to stick the knife in - you dont actually have to take ANY Talents to do all this. Anyone armed with a bolter can do this.

Compare the above to a melee guy. Yes - some melee weapons do more damage on a per hit basis. However, one cannot simply requisition these items easily. You need to advance through the renown ranks in order to pick these up - and are certainly not given out as starting equipment. Bolters are not only instantly available to most characters, but to purchase better versions (storm bolters, stalker or master-crafted bolters) is very low cost Req Points.

Then we look at (as one of the ranged bolter experts in our group pointed out to me), you can take talents that give you more attacks & better damage with melee weapons. But, these are not available instantly or even early, and they cost lots of xp, and these will only be bringing you on level terms to a Starting level character armed with bolt weapons - who can also take talents to improve damage and criticals etc. A melee guy will never be on par with a Bolter Bearer.

Also, as I'm a blood angel - he pointed out my solo mode ability where I can also do Righteous Fury on a 9 or 10 and re-roll damage dice. I laughed my arse off.! It lasts for Rank divided by 2 number of rounds - so 1 round at ranks 1 & 2, 2 rounds at rank 3 & 4 etc. Hardly compares to Hellfire rounds. Every round, every shot. And, this ability is for Blood Angels. Not Assault Marines!

My take is this - we play the concepts we enjoy and try to have fun (which I do), but it seems the balance is way off. It feels like the rules are geared up for ranged combat (specifically with bolters - plasma weapons do not seem to be anywhere near as powerful - which is WRONG!), and this is a shame. Only advanced melee characters with advanced melee weapons can compare to ranged combat with early level characters.

Manyfist said:

You forget that them there powerfists are not availble to characters for a good long while, and will eat into those requisition points that are much needed for a melee focused character. Also, in order to use a Powerfist (or any melee weapon) effectively, you need to increase 2 attributes: WS to hit, and STR to cause damage. Not the case with ranged - only need BS. Also, when wielding a Powerfist, one cannot parry. Does a heavy weapon stop you dodging? No, it does not.

Not to mention one might have to run (or jump pack) 100 metres to hit someone with said powerfist, by which time the ranged guys have probably mopped them all up causing multiple righteous furies on full auto bursts with all their special ammo and what-not.

How bitter do I sound??!!

Apologies for the double post.

@stormyfs

A close combat build is more than possible, excelling at single target takedowns. You just have to be sensible when it comes to the hordes.

That depends entirely on your talents. The current record-holder for horde slaughtering seems to be an assault marine. It's the friendly combination of Thunder Charge (+1D5+1 unarmed attacks on a charge),Lightning Attack (three attacks), Preternatural Speed (use Lightning Attack on a charge), Two-Weapon Wielder (for yet another Attack), Wrathful Descent (flat +1d10 damage to horde magnitude on a charge) and Whirlwind of Death (double all that) that does it - 1d5+5 attacks, 1D10 flat damage and all of that doubled.

And there's a few ways to upgrade that even further, but then you'll probably want a computer to help with all the die rolling and adding...

@sayles

Not to mention one might have to run (or jump pack) 100 metres to hit someone with said powerfist, by which time the ranged guys have probably mopped them all up causing multiple righteous furies on full auto bursts with all their special ammo and what-not.

I give you a heartfelt awww... right before pointing out that this usually takes about one round of running (AB 5, Hulking -> 36 metres, doubled for the jumppack to 72, while being at a -40 to hit due to Hard Target) and one charge (18 metres standard, doubled for Jump Pack to 36).

Cifer said:

All those feats you mentioned that increase damage vs hordes have to be purchased, and aren't available to early level characters.

With regards to the 100m sprint in 2 rounds - fair point. But that is still one round with 0 attacks, and a 2nd round with only 1. Compared to 2 rounds of full auto from bolt wepaons... Not everyone is going to take Hard Target. You cant factor in every single talent available to melee guys when talking about melee. Who the hell as ALL these talents??? And if a melee guy did have all these - think about the talents a ranged specialist could have taken with same xp.

Fairly bitter and I don't think that noting a sword is objectively inferior to a gun in a long ranged engagement over a barren field without cover is calling attention to a major balance issue that needs to be addressed.

You're also using bad logic and ignoring context- for example a Heavy weapon doesn't prevent you from dodging but neither does the Power Fist and it isn't like you can use the Heavy Bolter to parry either. The Power Fist also can (and usually will) be combined with a Balanced weapon in the offhand, which can be swung for an extra attack using a 500xp talent you can pick up at character creation. While I certainly agree being a super-deadly melee combatant takes more XP and a higher rank than being a deadly ranged attacker the double XP thing is misleading as you really don't need to boost strength like you do Weapon Skill since you start with a decent strength bonus already. Plus, for all the opportunity cost associated with it, melee mastery has a decidedly higher "skill cap" than ranged combat. A ranged specialist is dangerous until you close with them and then they're extremely disadvantaged versus a better melee specialist in a way the melee combatant is not at range- a range your Assault marine should have zero trouble closing since achieving a base agility bonus of 5 or more lets you move 92 yards as a run action. You're emphasizing the disadvantages of melee specialization while ignoring the substantial potential benefits over ranged combat in the appropriate circumstances. And if you absolutely don't think you can engineer those advantageous circumstances (despite the fact that short range fights are probably going to be over 90% of the combat in DW) then you can get a gun that you'll probably be pretty effective with for very little requisition- the low cost of entry to shooting cuts both ways and your BS should be respectable enough even as an assault marine.

I will agree, however, that melee characters are disadvantaged when it comes to starting equipment. This can be pretty easily rectified by letting characters start at the "Respected" rather than "Initiated" level of renown, which gives assault specialists access to their basic power weapons and gives everybody else access to the gear actual "veteran" Space Marines should have anyway. Bolters will still be a bit more dangerous more thanks to the DW rules for Righteous Fury but honestly the problem lies with the Righteous Fury rules more than anything else- look at how absurdly gross they make Lascannons.

LGD said:

A number of good points. It is at the starting / early levels that I have a major problem with the balance. Just seems to bum a bit. Starting at respected is a good idea - but that is changing the existing rules to balance it out - which they should have done when writing the **** system!

I do think that a team full of ranged experts would suck. Yes, they would kick out some AWESOME damage at range, but a canny GM would just send in a bunch of close combat monsters in a confined space and cause em havoc. A group containing melee capabilities would certainly help here. You are right on some points, but still, it does benefit to use ranged combat over melee early on for damage output. Big time.

And yeah, righteous fury sucks big time. It is way over the top - and again, seems to benefit ballistic weapons more. It's too good with either group though. Needs dumming down.

@sayles

All those feats you mentioned that increase damage vs hordes have to be purchased, and aren't available to early level characters.

So the D&D wizard that essentially becomes a deity on higher levels is outright inferior to the fighter that is good at early levels? Ranged combat peaks earlier than melee combat, yes.

With regards to the 100m sprint in 2 rounds - fair point. But that is still one round with 0 attacks, and a 2nd round with only 1. Compared to 2 rounds of full auto from bolt wepaons... Not everyone is going to take Hard Target. You cant factor in every single talent available to melee guys when talking about melee. Who the hell as ALL these talents???

The dedicated melee specialist, I'd expect. At least in Dark Heresy, when my guardsman went melee combatant, I had enough XP to both purchase melee talents, buy up Strength, WS and BS and indulge in some hobbies like Command and Medicae so we'd have a backup medic.

Further, it's irrelevant whether it's "only 1 attack" on the charge - that one attack deals 1D10+1+DoS/2 magnitude damage, easily as much as most ranged combatants. Which reminds me: I appear to have left out quite a few points of magnitude damage in my earlier post since it seems the Wrathful Descent adds the 1D10 to any successful melee attack made at the end of a charge.