Bilateralrope said:

Hmm that makes them unlikely to damage the guardsman much, if at all. But better than the normal rules at the least.

BTW if they have daggers would it be 3d5+3? If so that would be laughable (I've already house ruled my daggers though).

Friend of the Dork said:

No, the Horde rules specify additional d10s of damage, not just dice of damage, so a Magnitude 20+ Horde with knives would deal 2d10+1d5+3 damage.

I have had PC's beaten up by a couple of magnitude 15-20 clumps of angry peons armed with pitchforks, clubs and farming implements and they're definately not to be f**ked with, they WILL do some damage if they make contact. After all, "modern" armour only doubles its value against "primitive" weapons, so your tough guardsman with a TB 4 and Flack (8) runs a real risk of taking at least 2-6pts of damage or so on average I've found.

If they're up-armoured to carapace/power armour you'll need considerably more inbred cretins with pitchforks to worry them.

MKX said:

Well if Magnitude damage is capped at +2d10, then it will be hard to damage power-armor wielders who would have 16+TB DR. Not impossible, but tough. TB 4 would be enough to soak average damage completely, peons need to roll better than average to hurt with their pitchforks (1d10-2+SB).

Okay, I missed that +2d10 cap. That makes it more reasonable. But like Friend of the Dork says, that could make it difficult to damage very well-equipped acolytes, much less space marines ... unless the horde is also very well-equipped, of course.

Maybe . . . but consider the following:

1. The Horde grapples the target. If the WS test succeeds, the target is considered grappled (target cannot dodge or parry due to a horde doing the grappling)

2. If the target's Strength Bonus is less than (horde's magnitude/5 rounded up plus horde's strength bonus), the target is not considered grappled, but instead, a helpless target. This means that any subsequent melee attacks attempted by the horde against target automatically succeed, and the damage is rolled twice and added together to determine final damage to the target.

Example: The deposed tyrant Lord Ulric has been grappled by an angry mob of his former subjects. The mob is a horde of normal humans (all appropriate stat bonuses of 3) with a magnitude of 30. Lord Ulric is wearing common quality Power Armor, with eight armor points in all locations, has a Strength Bonus of 4, modified up to 6 due to the power armour, and a Toughness Bonus of 4. Under normal circumstances, the angry mob's unarmed strikes would have little chance of damaging Lord Ulric (16 Armour Points + 4 Toughness Bonus versus 1d5-3 for the Unarmed Strike, +3 for Strength Bonus, and +2d10 for the Horde's Magnitude or 2d10+1d5). However, the sheer number of people grabbing on to Lord Ulric means that the deposed tyrant is now a helpless target ; even with power armor on, Lord Elric is hard-pressed to deal with multiple hands grabbing on to and immobilizing each of his limbs (Lord Elric's Strength Bonus of 6 versus (30/5 + 3), or 9). Lord Elric is subsequently stomped to death within short order (Lord Elric's Armor of 16 plus Toughness Bonus of 4 versus effectively 4d10 +2d5)

Admittedly, this example may seem like a stretch to some people as power armor is involved. Personally, I can see it both ways ("power armor can support its own weight and then some, and is designed to survive high speed impacts" versus "even power armor has its weak points, especially around the flexible areas"). Ultimately, it's up to the individual GM and group to decide whether the above scenario can happen or not. Of course, nothing's stopping the above mob from trying to get Lord Elric's helmet off . . .

Also, the above may well make Hordes decidedly VERY deadly to players, so the whole "bear down and pummel to death" option should only be used by hordes consisting of critters with the pack hunter mentality or sentient creatures in an aggravated emotional state.

Finally, this is just an idea on my part. No doubt it's going to need refinement.

-Kirov

P.S. Note that I'm using the Rogue Trader/ Deathwatch version of "Helpless Target"; the entry listed in the Dark Heresy core rulebook is . . . inadequate . . . in so many ways.

There's also nothing to stop you from slipping an 'elite' individual (or two!) with a disguise into a horde of plebs that might be armed with something more signifigant and ready to pop a power blade or poisoned mono knife between someones ribs before bailing off into the sunset. Its kind of cheap, so it'd be worth letting the target have an opposed Awareness test vs the assassins Disguise or Concealment

Kirov said:

Note that in order to continue dealing damage with a grapple, and to maintain it, you need repeated Opposed Strength Tests... which may be difficult with a Strength 30 Horde attempting to pin down a single strong adversary. I'm personally tempted to apply the Horde's Magnitude to its Strength for things like grappling, knocking down doors, etc - basically any situation requiring the continued application of force. That way, at least, a horde attempting to swarm-and-grapple a target stands a fighting chance of succeeding.

Kirov said:

Hmm, interesting. This would also mean that acolytes generally should leave the "getting into melee with a horde to negate it's extra ranged attacks thing" to the big, burly space marines. I like that.

I think I may also implement N0-1_H3r3's idea of adding the horde's magnitude to its Strength for purposes of grappling, etc. Nice.

Also remember that each unarmed attack that deals damage exceeding the users TB will automatically cause one level of fatigue, meaning that Lord whatshisname in Power Armor will pretty much automatically take 1 Fatigue every round until he is unconscious, at which point the crowd can strip him of said armor, put on him a pink dress, rearange his internal organs or just rip him apart. I like the adding Magnitude to SB for purpose of grappling, but it might even be a bit too weak... maybe even allow Unnatural Strength x (Magnitude/x) instead. Even so, Mr. Noble in Power Armor and Strength 60 can still hold out a while with luck (tossing villeins here and there) until the mob with str 30 scores a success and overpower him with their sheer mass of numbers.

One thing I don't think is clear is how many people are supposed to be in say, a magnitude 30 horde? Is there a min/max guideline (say minimum 1 human per magnitude and max 5)?

I'm considering turning the first combat encounter in Dead Cities in a PCs vs raider horde encounter, but I wonder if 20 raiders with speedboats will be too few to resemble a magnitude 10 or 20 mob. Also, so not to overpower my PCs completely some of the ranged attacks of this horde will be targeted against NPCs.

Secondly, how are attacks on mobs made? Is normal damage converted to some special horde damage, and will semi/full auto and area attacks matter more?

Thanks in advance.

I like it for ranged combat, but for close combat it seems to me that the Acolytes are a little over powered. Taking the original example where 39 townies get into CC against them, I think that the Acolytes would be more than likely be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. If you are a space marine in powered armour I suppose you could say that it is hard even for 39 people to knock you down, but in reality, 'normal' humans would be torn to bits regardless of their madskillz. Add in some pinning after the first round of ranged combat, the Acolytes are really going to need to make like a shepherd and get the flock out of there or be involved in a stalemate. That is how I would run such an encounter, roughly speaking. After all, the townies are afraid of a giant spider, aren't they? Not completely mental and willing to die stupidly.

All of this assumes that you want to run DH with a 'real' feel like me, and not as a more heroic RPG.(Mind you, what is so heroic about messing around in the underhive and then mercilessly gunning down innocent men and women? See Black Hawk Down or Zulu for imperial balance).

Bad Birch said:

There are 'traits' that you can apply to hordes, including things like 'overwhelming.' (an extra d10 in hth if the mag is over 20) And Acolytes, at a level above 1, I wouldn't consider 'normal.' They're PC's after all and will end up with some amazing guns, kickass armor, annoying psyker abilities, and more. I like the real feel and all, but when you stack abilities and a PC is getting 4 hth attacks a round with a power sword, most townies are going to get their asses kicked.

Now bigger, badder, or more equal encounter hordes will still prove dangerous in HtH because of the +2d10 damage they get to do- in DH, taking 15+strength damage a turn hurts very badly.

As for the strength bonus for a horde's magnitude, I really like that idea for things like grapple, but for DH wouldn't use it for damage. Maybe add it as a trait the horde can get- not everyone can coordinate to mob someone like those 6 year olds that strip the clothing off tourists, but many could...

Charmander said:

Cool! I like traits for hordes, that would solve issues I have for DH. This is starting to look like a usable idea...

You are right, acolytes are exceptional individuals with (later in their careers) exceptional gear and skills. I suppose in the end, it would provide a change in pace for the acolytes and could be terrifying.

SPOILER ALERT

How about spicing up the end of Purge the Unclean by applying these ideas to the zombie horde that has to be repelled from the arbite station? I haven't run this scenario yet and thought about changing it quite a lot anyway. I hate fudging large scale combats in RPGs, after many, many years, I think my players are getting suspicious...

Bad Birch said:

Oh WOW!!! That would be truly SCARY! I like!

It's just a shame we already went through this scenario. Ah well, maybe for the next group.

Bad Birch said:

Fights like this is exactly the reason why I want to apply Horde Rules for DH. The zombie holocaust, the mad cultist attack at HoD&A, or just if the PCs manage to piss off a large group of people or have to escape from a unit of rebels.

I've read up a bit more on Hordes since my last question, but one major one is still unanswered: Are there any guidelines to how many people are represented by a single point of Magnitude? Because at some point the PCs will wanna know how many are attacking them, and they should be able to tell the difference between 100 and 20 individuals.

Regardless, at a certain point I think it is better to use multiple hordes rather than a single high-magnitude one, to better represent armies or gigantic mobs of thousands.

And really I can't believe even a Space Marine can kill 100+ men in a single round with a chainsword, no matter how strong. Heavy Bolter? Maybe, but not a single attack.

What I would like is a catagory system where various strengths and numbers of mobs are listed. For example:

Pathetic: 5-10 indiviudals per M. Examples: Rat swarm, bats, large insects, Grots etc.

Weak: 2-3 individuals per M. Examples: Gretchin, children, homonculi.

Mediocre: 1-2 individuals per M. Examples: Enraged Mob, cultists, petty criminals etc.

Medium: 1 -1/2 Individual per M. Examples: Imperial Guard or PDF unit, Ork Boyz, Eldar aspect warriors etc.

Elite: 1/2-1/3 indiduals per M. Examples: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, Shocktroopers, Eldar Avengers, Lootas.

Toughs: 1/3 -1/4 per M. Examples: Space Marines, Ork Nobz, Eldar Banshees, Genestealers.

Sounds good?

Friend of the Dork said:

I like this concept, even though I tend to believe they (the devs) intended the concept to be more abstract.

In the end though, I guess it just comes down to what works for you and your players.

If it were me, though, based on your example, I would probably scale it something like:

Pathetic: 30-50 individuals per M

Weak: 20-30 individuals per M

Mediocre: 10-20 individuals per M

Medium: 5-10 individuals per M

Elite: 2-5 individuals per M

Toughs: 1-2 individuals per M

But, that's just me.

Sister Cat said:

So that means if the Acolytes are fighting a Magnitude 30 horde made up of gangers with stub automatics, it means at least 150 gun-toting maniacs are required for 3 ranged attacks at 3d10+3 damage.. and if the PCs hit the mob for say 10 damage with a pistol they kill essentially 5 or 10 people...

Or to put it the other way, if a platoon of 60 imperial guardsmen open fire on the PCs they are only a Magnitude 12 horde, gets only 1 ranged attack with the meager damage of 2d10+3 lasgun damage. 8 damage will kill 5 or 10 of them, meaning the PCs will gun them down VERY quickly.

Remember Magnitude over 30 essentially has no effect other than requiring more hits to affect the Horde negatively. I also noticed during gameplay testing that experienced acolytes with access to bolt weapons or similar will defeat Magnitude 25 Hordes with ease, so if you want your platoon of Imperial Guardsmen to actually be challenging or dangerous for acolytes, I suggest you use at least 30 Magnitude for it - thus 1-2 individuals per Magnitude is appropriate I think.

I think I'll combine Mediocre and Medium into one group which is essentially normal armed humans "grunts." The difference between Hive gangers and Imperial Guardsmen will mostly be in equipment and personal attributes rather than how much damage they can take. 30 Magnitude should probably never represent less than 30 normal human grunts, but could be appropriate for high TB/wounds characters such as Stormtroopers and some Orks.

In any case the problem with too abstract rules on this is how to describe a Magnitude 60 Horde against a group of Acolytes... thousands? Hundreds?

Okay, I can buy that.

But that is also an argument for why the devs left it kind of vague/abstract because, for example:

I see a horde of insects, even a puny M10 horde, having literally thousands of bugs, or at the very least, hundreds.

I see a horde of, say rats (or other small nuisance beasts), also M10, as having at least several tens of individuals.

... etc., etc.

Of course, you may see it differently, so ...

With that in mind, I think I am more inclined to just "wing it" based on each encounter. I still like your idea. But I can't see it being "set in stone" across all possible permutations of a horde, imo.

Hordes can and should do horrible things to low level acolytes if they do not play things smart (or just get unlucky!). I am not sure this is a problem per-se. The problem I can see is more a matter of when to use hordes vs. a pack of individual foes as a GM. From a bookkeeping standpoint they are a true blessing, since keeping track of wounds spread out over 60 "baddies" can be needlessly tedious and complicated.

My game is at the ascention level now and judicious use of hordes is a great tool to have at my disposal for those special "holy crap, they brought alot of thugs today!" moments. Keep in mind that some of them are virtually immune to most common pistols and rifles if the team is in their heavy wargear, especially the Magos, Guardsmen and Arbites. For example our team's Magos (TB8) has best quality Dragonscale PA (AP9 all), a cybernetic heart, some augmetic limbs, The Flesh is Weak (Machine trait) and a few nasty tricks besides... Shotguns, autoguns, stub pistols, autopistols, lasguns.... The weapons of mere mortals do not challenge the supremacy of the Omnissiah's chosen! For fights with 15 hive gangers this is entirely appropriate (and fun!). But what if instead of a 15 member gang our heroic Techpriest is staring down the muskets and pitchforks of 900 pissed off and frightened peasants that have mistaken him for a daemon? Ok, that many muskets and one (or 12!) might just get lucky and strike a (relatively) vulnerable I/O port, his left nostril or some other random piece of meat.... Low on probability, but there is definately a potential risk here.

No matter how awesome your characters are, 1000 assholes with lasguns SHOULD be at least a noteworthy obstacle that is worthy of some caution and mindpower. Standing out in the open, dropping trou and mooning them should run the risk that a few may just shoot your stupid-ass. On the other hand, sneaking past these yokels or drawing them in to your pre-fortified ambush that would do Rogal Dorn proud only serves to enhance how awesome your Throne Agents are! Drama, tension and story development are good; Random TPKs are bad. Totally predictable TPKs are lessons.

The Inquisition does not play fair, so use your Throne-given brain to avoid failure. The Emperor does not like failure. Failure is heresy! Don't be a heretic...

So, this thread started out proposing extra attacks for Mangitude instead of extra damage, since most DH characters could never survive an attack that would threaten a power-armoured Space Marine. Did I miss the resolution of that line of reasoning? I haven't used the Horde Rules yet, so my opinion is of limited value, but I'm thinking +2 extra attacks per 10 points of Magnitude instead of the DW +1 and no extra damage sounds more reasonable to me- am I wrong? Should we just scale down the Magnitude of Hordes for DH ?

+2 attacks per ten magnitude and no extra damage would sort of defeat the purpose of hordes. There'd be a large amount of dice rolling and only a small chance of actually damaging high level PCs with large amounts of mooks. It's probably better to either scale down the hordes you expect them to fight or decrease the rate at which the horde gains extra damage without removing it completely. I'm thinking +1 damage and +2 (or more) pen per 10 magnitude. The greater rate the horde gains pen would make PC's easier to hurt without significant risk of 1st round TPK.

I guess I'm having a problem with the idea of, say, an undisciplined mob armed with stub guns focusing all of their attacks on one PC, dealing killing damage to any non-Ascended character, while leaving everyone else in the party completely unscathed...

Sure, but it seems equally wrong that a mob of 30 magnitude would have 6 attacks that just bounce off the acolytes. Large numbers of individually weak enemies already shoot many times and do next to no damage so all using the horde rule without extra damage would do is make them easier to defeat and give them less attacks to get RF on.

Graspar said:

Unless you have some lethal house rule in play, only characters who can use Fate Points are capable of Righteous Fury. This means PCs, very important and special NPCS and the occasional arch-villain. The Emperor blesseth not the mooks, for they are unworthy.

There is also an overlooked point here. Since the context of this discussion is Dark Heresy, why would the acolytes (or Throne Agents) routinely stand and fight against hordes of baddies? This is work for Astartes and Imperial Guard! Your Holy mandate is far too important to be distracted by trivial matters such as angry mobs. Hordes are great at building dramatic tension in scenes, but they are also great at killing mere mortals that wade in solo against them. Don't think Rambo, think James Bond.... Now on the other hand, if the group's Cleric rouses up the Righteous ire of the local PDF troopers and leads them in a frontal assault against a heretic stronghold as a distraction so that the rest of the acolytes can slip in during the confusion, then you are making good use of the Horde rules for a DH game.

Unless you have some lethal house rule in play, only characters who can use Fate Points are capable of Righteous Fury. This means PCs, very important and special NPCS and the occasional arch-villain. The Emperor blesseth not the mooks, for they are unworthy.

Well yes, but combat with mooks pretty much breaks down after the PCs obtain carapace armour (or more) and puts some XP into toughness unless you allow everyone RF. It's a needed house rule, one that's included as RAW in RT and DW.

There is also an overlooked point here. Since the context of this discussion is Dark Heresy, why would the acolytes (or Throne Agents) routinely stand and fight against hordes of baddies? This is work for Astartes and Imperial Guard! Your Holy mandate is far too important to be distracted by trivial matters such as angry mobs. Hordes are great at building dramatic tension in scenes, but they are also great at killing mere mortals that wade in solo against them. Don't think Rambo, think James Bond.... Now on the other hand, if the group's Cleric rouses up the Righteous ire of the local PDF troopers and leads them in a frontal assault against a heretic stronghold as a distraction so that the rest of the acolytes can slip in during the confusion, then you are making good use of the Horde rules for a DH game.

Yes, that's very true, but the current horde rules would one shot many PC's. Some balance where one could encounter a horde, take a shot or two in the back while running away and still have a decent chance to live if escape is suitably swift would be nice.