EchPiEl said:

I remain convinced with the precedent set in the FAQ and logic dictating the true premises that I had shown equaling the conclusion that X = 0. If Marius is correct in his suggested use of this card, then it will require further printed errata. You are given two predetermined conditions to modify X beyond anything other than 0.

(v1.0) X (The Letter X)
Unless specified by a preceding card,
card effect, or granted player choice, the
letter X is always equal to zero.

Does a preceding card specify what X is?

Is there a way for X to be arbitrarily granted by the player?

If neither of the above modifiers apply, then X = 0.

Wrong, Anthropology Advisors can reduce Investigators costs to 0.

And I think that the FAQ doesn't apply here because one of the things you have to do when playing Unspeakable Resurrection is choosing the character you want to resurrect, thus setting the X cost. And Yog instructs you to play the spell, so you have to make all steps of normally playing it.

I think this is an interesting question that will probably require "official" answer (if and when...)

But, if you Yogged out Unspeakable, and didn't pay any cost (Yog tells you not to), then I am pretty sure X would be equal to zero. Normally X is the payment, but there is no payment, so there is no X, so in CoC terms X=0.

You don't choose a character and then pay X - you pay X and then can choose a character. So there is no player choice on X.

My opinion obviously.

EchPiEl said:

Lots of cards do actually, 4 examples came to mind after I hit publish. Post got modified before you replied.

It obviously needs official rulings.

The problem is, the way you're ruling it, cost reducers would never work with X cost cards, because they would also reduce the card effect in the same way they reduce it's cost. And cost reducers have always work with X costs cards in Cthulhu before, so it would mean additional change as well.

Does Marius work for FFG or not? I'm just wondering what status he has in terms of knowing what FFG's official stance is on these sorts of things? I ask because, well, if he's just some guy who's been playing for a long time and knows a lot about the game, then sure, he might get things wrong now and again. On the other hand, if he's involved in the design and/or playtesting process, I guess he's got a good idea of how FFG intend the effect to work.

In other words, when he says that you can bring in Hastur / Cthulhu / anyone you want (as applicable ) for cost 2 using Yog and unspeakable resurrection, is this a mistake from someone who has made a human error, or are we just fighting the inevitable FaQ answer that 'yes, that's exactly how we meant it to be played'?

(Oh, and as a PS, I can see how this is abusable, but as I play an event spell-heavy Yog / Hastur deck I'm selfishly hoping you can nominate a value for X here ... )

TheProfessor said:

Exactly. The action of the card doesnt resolve until payment is made. You cannot choose a target creature until payment is made. Payment through Yog Sothoth equals 0 because nothing was paid.

I think the term "guest writter" tells it all, Marius is a former Cthulhu world champion and playtester, I think that's all his involvement with FFG.

In fact, the part about disrupting things with Yog's action and a disrupting spell is wrong as well, so this part may be wrong also.

I think that choosing targets is par of a card's playing, not resolving, thus, you choose targets, pay the cost THEN resolve the card, not the other way around.

EchPiEl said:

The relevant text from Unspeakable Resurrection:

Action: Choose a character in your discard pile with cost X or lower. Put that character into play.

Please explain how you can resolve any action before the cost of the card is paid.

The problem is, i can say "I'm going to pay twenty thousand for this, but there's an effect that says i don't have to pay the twenty thousand, so I'm going to choose a character with twenty thousand (it's been paid for, because an effect says I don't have to) or less cost and pur it into play".

Actually, the problem is that the action of Unspeakable Resurrection specifically states you choose a character. Unless there is some way of resolving that cards action before payment is made, then the action (choosing a character) cannot be resolved.

Payment equals 0, therefore a 0 cost character must be chosen.

Argue about it until the cows come home, but I am done. To me, it is set in stone unless an errata is made.

I think the main disagreement here is if the cost of a card exists independently of the way you pay it.

If it exists independently, then cost reductors or cost waivers work with X cost cards, because you set X then look for ways to pay it.

If it does not, then X is not the cost of the card but what you're paying for it.

I, too, was curious about Marius' status with FFG. Given that they let him publish these regular articles on expansion packs and cards from them, and put them up on their main website....you would think they (FFG) are proofreading the articles - more or less - prior to posting / clearance to go up. Also...as logic would dictate, Marius is hearing / discussing these cards in advance of when we might learn about them (hence his ability to put up spoilers / previews of some, along with potential strategies for their use).....and he's probably talking / discussing with some of the FFG design team people who are creating these cards...no ? This possibility does not seem unreasonable to me.

This is why, when he makes some rules-based suggestions for how the card could be played ....it seems possible it's because FFG guys themselves told him, "Yeah, Marius ....this new card we made is kickass ! You will be shocked at how useful it is, particularly with Unspeakable Ressurection !".

He then would put up the concept / idea in his write-up on the new Yog card.

Is it a sure thing...of course not....but out of all the other articles he's done....how many other "clear errors" has he made in terms of his suggested uses for a given card // combo // etc- where the rules are concerned ? If he has a history of making suggestions, and they turn out to be unplayable or against the rules....then that would be one thing.......if, instead, he's always right in his suggestions....AND he has close contact with FFG personnel, prior to and during the creation of his articles.....well, then we might expect to see Errata for this card, clarifying how it works with Unspeakable (and some other mentioned cards) - in the next update of the FAQ.

Reading through all this my thoughts are that X equals 0. I cannot see how you can put a cost of anything else to it.

Ok, so I am going to take some of my many years of CCG/LCG/TCG experience across 6 games and put my two cents in on this incredibly debatable topic. As far as the order of action resolution in most CCG/LCG/TCGs it goes as such: Cost, Target, Goes into the process of being played (cast), then Resolution in order of print on card (unless otherwise stated on card). It is this way in every game I've played, including: Pokemon, Yugioh, Wyvern, Magi-Nation, CoC LCG, and Magic. As far as "X" as a cost goes the faq says it equates to zero unless something is directly paying for it. This is true in Magic and Magi-Nation both had "X" cards. You are paying 2 for Yoggy's ability which then makes you target a Spell in your Graveyard, then allows you to play the targeted spell ignoring all costs (aka: X), then said spell goes into the process of casting (where the opportunity to use Reactions and Disrupts takes place, then the Spell resolves. This MHO on the whole ordeal theres probably some hole in there just reply and Ill try to explain.

Hellfury said:

Ok, perhaps a parallel question will help things out. How does Dampen Light affect X cost cards. If X references how much is actually paid for the card then Dampen Light has no affect on X cost cards. If X is chosen by the player before costs are payed, then Dampen Light will afftect the cards like all other cards and make the player pay X+1.

Dastrdly Dave said:

In the previous game I've played the action sequence went more or less like this:
1. Announce action applying the Good Faith Rule.
Good Faith Rule : When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.
2. Choose targets and performers.
3. Pay costs.
4. Resolve action.
5. End action.

So, as you can see, it's not as clear on my end

And a funny thing I've found (which actually would make sense for CoC too):
Additional costs can come from effects outside the card, action or trait being paid for. These additional costs are paid after costs from the card itself. If more than one additional cost applies, the active player decides in what order they should be paid.

It would mean that Dampen Light could make you pay additional resources for Yog ability, with a different domain to boot!

As I see it, it's like that:

1. Use Yog ability.

2. Make spell in discard cost 0 and play it as if it were in your hand.

And that's when DL and other stuff can come in.

Rosh87 said:

He was proven incorrect in the very same article, Rosh. As EchPiEl showed us much earlier in the thread, you cannot cast disrupt spells from the discard pile because it is an action that brings it from the discard pile. Because it is an action that brings it from the discard pie, it is already too late to cast the disrupt because the effect has long since resolved. This is a true statement backed by the rules.

Manit0u said:

Your conclusion remains unclear due to premises you have included in the game which are untrue.

Include true premises that follow the rules and the conclusion becomes clear.

For instance, your good faith rule. Yog sothoth would be targeting one card only and that would be Unspeakable Resurrection. It does not target the card that Unspeakable Resurrection itself targets. You must follow the order of operation correctly in order to get a character into play using Unspeakable Resurrection.

Pay Yog Sothoth's cost of 2 in order to resolve his action

Target Unspeakable Resurrection

Resolve Unspeakable Resurrection's action by choosing a character with a cost of X

No cost has been paid to make unspeakable resurrection be anything other than 0, so X = 0

[edit to include FAQ reference...again]

Going back to the FAQ, we look at what could modify X to a value of anything other than 0:

(v1.0) “X” (The Letter “X”)
Unless specified by a preceding card,
card effect, or granted player choice, the
letter “X” is always equal to zero.

Did a preceding card dictate this value?

Did a card effect modify this value?

Was there a choice given to the player to modify this value?

If none of the above are relevant, then X = 0 according to the rules.

Really guys, the matter of debate is rather simple. I have already given premises that make my conclusion logical and viable. Disprove my conclusion and you actually have a debate. Anything else is circular reasoning and a circular argument.

I think it is pretty clear. It seems the only disagreement is the order of targeting and paying costs. In this game, payment is made first. It is not explicitly described in the rules, but it shows up in examples in the rule book.

Tommy has no disrupt or response actions to take, but he would like to take one action. He plays the event card “Shotgun Blast” (Agency event) by draining a domain with three resources attached (one of which is an Agency ( _ ) resource, enabling the match). The event states “ Action : choose and wound a character with skill X or lower.” (X is the cost paid for the card.) He chooses the Byakhee Servant as his target.

Because the payment happens before the targeting, the value of X in our example would never have been a player choice, so will be equal to zero.

Yes payment is made first. You can find some point about that (p.8 in the operation phase, p.12 timing rule)

You pay something to play or trigger the effect. Then you resolve the effect. An action is resolved completely before to take another action.

it means when a card have a triggered effect like "Action: choose a target to do something" the choice of the target is made once you have pay the cost to trigger it. You can't choose something before you pay for the Action because the choice of the target is part of the effect. (it is the card's effect which says you to choose something).

p.8 : "In order for a player to play a card from his hand (or to activate
certain card effects), he must pay for it by draining a domain with
sufficient resources.

p.9 :"Some cards have abilities that can be triggered from play, but still
require the triggering player to drain a domain with a specified
number of resources to pay their cost"

For those of you who wish to bring out the big stompy timmy monsters, this whole issue with Unspeakable Resurrection is a red herring.

To paraphrase Obi Wan Kenobi: "This is not the card that you seek..."

What you are really looking for is:

It wont bring out Ancient Ones, but it does open up a whole new strata of Monster subtype recursion that would make even Shub Niggurath absolutely LIVID with jealousy.

With 54 Monster characters to currently choose from, it makes Yog Sothoth a nasty casual game character indeed.

Chew that one over for awhile....

[edit]

*sigh*

After chewing that one over for awile....This wont work either since Yog Sothoth actions says:

"Action: Pay 2 to choose and play a Spell EVENT card from your discard pile without paying its costs. Then, place that card on the bottom of your deck."

(emphasis on EVENT mine)

Oh well, that would have been cool. So much for finally making Opener of the Gate functional. Its combo with Chant of Thoth still the 'best' (read: functional but still not very good at all).

EchPiEl said:

Marius was never a world champion, the just got on Nate's good side so well he can only see daylight through Nate's bellybutton. And are you really a guest writer if you've written every article every time?

Hata and Nate both fled from this year's world championship when basic rules questions came up and they either didn't know or got the answers wrong, so what they meant it to do vs what the rules say it should do are iffy at best.

I think that "guest writter" just means that the person writting is not a FFG employee.

The problem here is that we don't know if a player playing a X -cost card has the option of setting X to whatever he wants or not, because that would enter in the "granted player's choice" in the FAQ (Yog actually makes you "play" the card instead of just "copying" its effects, the latter would undoubtly mean that the X in the effect is 0, but playing it means going to all the steps of playing the card, just like it was played from your hand).

Let me give an example: to wound a 3 skill character with Shotgun Blast, I could drain a 5 resources domain, just say that X is 5 and proceed to wound a "5 or less skill character" but it may be beneficial for me to just say that X is 3 and I'm overpaying the Shotgun Blast by 2 by draining a 5 resourse domain, perhaps to trigger a "if you overpay an Event by 2 or more". It's just a matter of exactly knowing if the cost of X cost cards is in the hands of the player playing them or not.

Manit0u said:

but, that's not what Yog does at all. The card still has it's original cost, but you don't have to pay it with draining resources. So if someone used dampen light on me and then I triggered Yog's ability the cost of the spell would increase by one, but I still wouldn't have to pay it.