Having your helmet off doesn't just make you sniper-bait - autofire can run up to you head!
No helmet, really?
They could always wear a Carapace helm that is open front. No Autosenses but they get a little less armor for the head and their enhanced senses.
Or a Mesh Beret for that special forces feel!
This could be an excuse for the goofy wolf mask/helmet that some of the figs have.
I'm going to get a tech marine to weld my helmet on, and never ever take it off, obviously. It will be done for roleplay aspects, so absolutely no penalties from the GM should be allowed.
People have control of their characters, and can run around with or without their helmet as they see fit, or be a nudist and never wear anything. Most people would be fine with any bad consequences of choosing to do so though.
If I was a super hero my friends have said I would be named Sarcastro.
Suijin said:
I'm going to get a tech marine to weld my helmet on, and never ever take it off, obviously. It will be done for roleplay aspects, so absolutely no penalties from the GM should be allowed.
People have control of their characters, and can run around with or without their helmet as they see fit, or be a nudist and never wear anything. Most people would be fine with any bad consequences of choosing to do so though.
If I was a super hero my friends have said I would be named Sarcastro.
Your super powers have failed to change my outlook though: if one of my players wants to run around without a helmet, I'll help him reduce the risk for his PC just for the style factor of it.
Alex
Does'nt a Spacewolf marine have great heightened senses he can use to spot the enemy before they spot him?...So he can decide to put his hemet on again?
My Space Wolf Tac Marine is currently running around in scout armor, so there's no helmet there anyway.
Darq said:
Suijin said:
Its not common sense - its a role playing game. You as a GM should do everything in your power to SUPPORT players who do things like run around with their helmet off BECAUSE it flies in the face of "Common Sense". You should take some pot shots at him, let him here the zing past his ear, but even if the roll says head shot, you should move it someplace else BECAUSE he is role playing.
In my book the difference between a good role player and a munchkin is the player who does something, not because its the best decision to achieve the "goal" of the game, but because it is what their character would do.
This statement is full of awesome and win...I whole-heartedly agree with this message. To reward players (foolish) bravery, those who opt to go completely helmet-less for the whole mission shall gain a bonus fate point during or an extra renown after.
LOL
Howdy!
Kudos to BMaynard!
To the troll that said he believes it is the gm verses the players...play table top.
Fluff is what rpgs are all about.
Have Fun! And don't take out your personal shortcomings on your players.
Howdy!
To expand....I see the GM as telling a story of a vivid and challenging world that the Players expand and enrich. I give bonus exp/reknown etc for good roleplaying, smart plans, skillful execution and for making me laugh. So have fun.
ak-73 said:
Suijin said:
I'm going to get a tech marine to weld my helmet on, and never ever take it off, obviously. It will be done for roleplay aspects, so absolutely no penalties from the GM should be allowed.
People have control of their characters, and can run around with or without their helmet as they see fit, or be a nudist and never wear anything. Most people would be fine with any bad consequences of choosing to do so though.
If I was a super hero my friends have said I would be named Sarcastro.
Your super powers have failed to change my outlook though: if one of my players wants to run around without a helmet, I'll help him reduce the risk for his PC just for the style factor of it.
Alex
Yeah, first priority is to have fun.
Play with people like minded to you (mostly those who play to have fun, or the other kind if that floats your boat).
Suijin said:
I'm going to get a tech marine to weld my helmet on, and never ever take it off, obviously. It will be done for roleplay aspects, so absolutely no penalties from the GM should be allowed.
People have control of their characters, and can run around with or without their helmet as they see fit, or be a nudist and never wear anything. Most people would be fine with any bad consequences of choosing to do so though.
If I was a super hero my friends have said I would be named Sarcastro.
Yah, you should do that.
major shultz said:
Howdy!
Kudos to BMaynard!
To the troll that said he believes it is the gm verses the players...play table top.
Fluff is what rpgs are all about.
Have Fun! And don't take out your personal shortcomings on your players.
Sorry, but if the bulkhead gives way because they fired thier multimelta onboard ship and they were dumb enough not to be wearing a helmet...
By your logic, I should not punish the player who does stupidly suicidal things because 'that's what they do!'. Depsite the fact that in fluff they 'die' because of doing things like that. This is grimdark. If there's no risk of messy, brutal death, it's not 40k. (In fact, according the rulebook, the players should be rewarded for dying spectacularly)
Go play brighthammer if you want PCs to live forever.
BaronIveagh said:
Sorry, but if the bulkhead gives way because they fired thier multimelta onboard ship and they were dumb enough not to be wearing a helmet...
By your logic, I should not punish the player who does stupidly suicidal things because 'that's what they do!'. Depsite the fact that in fluff they 'die' because of doing things like that. This is grimdark. If there's no risk of messy, brutal death, it's not 40k. (In fact, according the rulebook, the players should be rewarded for dying spectacularly)
Go play brighthammer if you want PCs to live forever.
If this thread was about PCs running around stark naked and wibbling at the Orks instead of fighting like Space Marines, then you'd have some cause for acting haughty to GMs. But helmetless characters trashing their foes are a part of the grimdark 40k background. So simply acting dismissively towards people who aren't utterly opposed to the concept of helmetless characters is highhanded and unconstructive.
Personally, I'd consider a reknown reward for helmetless PCs. If they can merely survive the random hit table from 3D10+whatever damage dealing hordes, then fair play to them.
Decessor said:
BaronIveagh said:
Sorry, but if the bulkhead gives way because they fired thier multimelta onboard ship and they were dumb enough not to be wearing a helmet...
By your logic, I should not punish the player who does stupidly suicidal things because 'that's what they do!'. Depsite the fact that in fluff they 'die' because of doing things like that. This is grimdark. If there's no risk of messy, brutal death, it's not 40k. (In fact, according the rulebook, the players should be rewarded for dying spectacularly)
Go play brighthammer if you want PCs to live forever.
If this thread was about PCs running around stark naked and wibbling at the Orks instead of fighting like Space Marines, then you'd have some cause for acting haughty to GMs. But helmetless characters trashing their foes are a part of the grimdark 40k background. So simply acting dismissively towards people who aren't utterly opposed to the concept of helmetless characters is highhanded and unconstructive.
Personally, I'd consider a reknown reward for helmetless PCs. If they can merely survive the random hit table from 3D10+whatever damage dealing hordes, then fair play to them.
*sigh*
Actually, it's not that fluffy, other then for space wolves. Even Ventris puts his **** helmet on in combat, and he's a space marine captain. GW removed the helmets so that Sgts stood out from the rest of the helmet wearing marines. This later extended to characters, as it made for more impressive minis (that whole Bling of War thing they do). In the fluff, most of htem use common sense and put thier **** helmets on.
it helps that in 40k, a sniper can't pick off officers. (unless the sniper is a character himself)
IIRC I remember at least two stories where this is lampshaded. One was Cain talking about the Sisters of battle fighting without thier helmets on, and the other was a Dark Angel mentally narrating his fight with a CSM. Both came to the conclusion that faith is great, but extra ceramite doesn't hurt.
BaronIveagh said:
*sigh*
Sighing is of no use to anyone.
BaronIveagh said:
Actually, it's not that fluffy, other then for space wolves.
Depends on what you consider background.
BaronIveagh said:
Even Ventris puts his **** helmet on in combat, and he's a space marine captain. GW removed the helmets so that Sgts stood out from the rest of the helmet wearing marines.
Actually there were RT era minis without helmets that were not designated as captains nor sergeants. In fact, your claim is just that: just a claim.
BaronIveagh said:
This later extended to characters, as it made for more impressive minis (that whole Bling of War thing they do). In the fluff, most of htem use common sense and put thier **** helmets on.
it helps that in 40k, a sniper can't pick off officers. (unless the sniper is a character himself)
IIRC I remember at least two stories where this is lampshaded. One was Cain talking about the Sisters of battle fighting without thier helmets on, and the other was a Dark Angel mentally narrating his fight with a CSM. Both came to the conclusion that faith is great, but extra ceramite doesn't hurt.
You can choose your fluff, other people will choose theirs and no amount of sighing on your behalf or pretending that their choices are unfounded will change that.
Alex
BaronIveagh said:
major shultz said:
Howdy!
Kudos to BMaynard!
To the troll that said he believes it is the gm verses the players...play table top.
Fluff is what rpgs are all about.
Have Fun! And don't take out your personal shortcomings on your players.
Sorry, but if the bulkhead gives way because they fired thier multimelta onboard ship and they were dumb enough not to be wearing a helmet...
By your logic, I should not punish the player who does stupidly suicidal things because 'that's what they do!'. Depsite the fact that in fluff they 'die' because of doing things like that. This is grimdark. If there's no risk of messy, brutal death, it's not 40k. (In fact, according the rulebook, the players should be rewarded for dying spectacularly)
Go play brighthammer if you want PCs to live forever.
Not at all - Stupid is different than roleplaying. If they are stupid enough to be in space, shooting a weapon that can punch holes in the bulkhead by all means fry them. That is not quite the same as having every NPC in the game given a long las with orders to take aimed shots at his head. I am talking about a GM going out of the way to punish a player for good role playing. Now if said Space Marine had his helmet off, and said good bye to his companions, beleiving he was going to die, but took the shot anyway - because it is what is character would do, then **** straight I would probably find a way to save him.
Perhaps let me try another tack:
Not wearing a helmet doesn't fundementally unbalance the game. It doesn't "Let the players get away we something". It does allow them to add to the role playing aspect of the game. Nor does moving the shot from a head shot to an arm shot fundementally change the balance of the game. It does encourage role playing and add to the cinematic dramatis, especially if the player doesn't know you did it.
Its usually tough to pull real role playing out of players - more so in a highly combat oriented game like this. So I don't want to punish them for trying different things I want to encourage it. If you kill off a character every time they try something and are unsuccessful, they will just stop trying.
If you want realism, go with Phoenix Command. This is 40k, IMHO it should be about bigger than life heros acting heroically and TRIUMPHING in the face of over whelming odds.
But that's what my player's want.
ak-73 said:
BaronIveagh said:
Actually, it's not that fluffy, other then for space wolves.
Depends on what you consider background.
BaronIveagh said:
Even Ventris puts his **** helmet on in combat, and he's a space marine captain. GW removed the helmets so that Sgts stood out from the rest of the helmet wearing marines.
Actually there were RT era minis without helmets that were not designated as captains nor sergeants. In fact, your claim is just that: just a claim.
In the RT era the Emperor was alive and space marines were inducting robots.
First Space Marine Set:
Yes, there were some marines without helmets. Back when Copplestone and Perry breifly replaced Jes Goodwin on the loyalist marines metals while Goodwin made the plastics, they did a few without helmets in the first half of 1988. Then they went back to designing the early CSMs and early chaplains. They did design the first assault marine, who had no helmet. and no jump pack. They did a few other things that were rather.. interesting, such as marines wearing powerfists while toteing lascannons.
Around the time that the box set was released that the 'head' would signify officers and the 'helmet' would signify regular marines. Partially this was a cost saving measure, as sculpting bare heads required more detailed molds then Goodwin's beakies.
Since then, characters (rank regaurdless) have tended toward being bare headed, in order to differentiate them for the 'generic' marine and it makes for a more dramatic pose. And easier for both sides to spot on the table.
AS far as your other points in the second post:
This is 40k. The Space Marines do not always win. The players wish to triumph, but their enemies will stop at nothing to be victorious themselves. The players are playing trained warriors, and as trained warriors, they know that the helmet is there for a reason, not just as a misc disposable part of their otherwise sacred power armor.
Also: At least in my campeign, CSMs have read the Evil Overlord's Handbook.
That there are no rules to enable Marines to go helmetless rather demonstrates that Deathwatch was written by someone who had never seen a picture of a Space Marine.
I have conducted a swift review of the artwork in Deathwatch.
By my count there are 136 (loyalist) Marines depicted in combat poses in the Deathwatch rulebook.
Of these 52 or 38% are not wearing a helmet.
BaronIveagh said:
AS far as your other points in the second post:
This is 40k. The Space Marines do not always win. The players wish to triumph, but their enemies will stop at nothing to be victorious themselves. The players are playing trained warriors, and as trained warriors, they know that the helmet is there for a reason, not just as a misc disposable part of their otherwise sacred power armor.
Also: At least in my campeign, CSMs have read the Evil Overlord's Handbook.
That is
one possible
interpretation of the 40K universe and
nothing more
. You find your interpretation realistic, I find your realism dull and boring and - it's out the window in the campaign I am going to run. No matter how many times you claim that it's only to make commanders stand out which still is all just speculation and claiming to my ears.
And in case you didn't notice: there are quite a few guys who are also picking an interpretation different from yours.
Alex
... I can't say, the few times that I've been shot at, that it's dull OR boring...
Actually, having the guy next to you's head shatter and bits go everywhere can be quite dramatic. It frequently leads to people diving for cover and trying to figure out where the shot came from. After all, all it takes is one good shot and I bet the guys in his squad will never forget to put their helmets on.
AluminiumWolf said:
That there are no rules to enable Marines to go helmetless rather demonstrates that Deathwatch was written by someone who had never seen a picture of a Space Marine.
Yes there are, it just means that you don't get your bonuses for autosenses, fully sealed suit, etc. It's pretty simple really.