Where was Talbain during the S.A.S? The only thing I know he's done is win a card in Canada.

How is this widespread domination?

To put in my two cents, I think Talbain is a noob trap, because noobs will play his game and lose. Skilled players who refuse to play ball will usually leave him with a handful of foundations, and have wolfboy draw out of a tourney. All Talbain does in Tampa is run up the clock- hardly worth writing home about.

Now I know Cape Coral is one of the dominant UFS zones in the world right now, and it's not a stretch to say that they're better than my group, as they were last time we met, but surely they must realize that a "Silver Bullet"" card against Talbain is ridiculous. Why not print one against all good characters? The answer to Talbain is purely playstyle. Just as you wouldn't walk into an iron Maiden, you don't play Talbain's game. Let him play all the assets he wants, good luck passing those Spikes.

Of all the people to hear complain about him, you surprise me the most Tag. When I saw how you played against Seong Mi-na at the SAS, I thought you would have been able to draw the similar parallel. It's pretty much the same scenario.

Want to do something against Talbain? Start putting your money where your mouth is and win every tourney you show up to with him. Nothing will convince people easier than widespread domination. Until then all we can do is bicker.

ceejaybee said:

So are you saying the way to play against Talbain is just... not play at all? Isn't a game supposed to be about playing? How is that nothing to worry about? Talbain can usually mean that the player who actually starts playing the game is the one that loses, because playing the game (UFS, the way it was meant to be played) means playing Talbain's game.

I've always said that UFS = Universal FOUNDATION System

Amano Jacu said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't see the value in a free draw against Talbain, and are more concerned with playing the game the way you feel it should be played, then you deserve whatever outcome that's in store for you. When I joined, the game toted the label as the game for hardcore tournament players. That label has since been stowed away to a less obvious status. Talbain only has his card draw ability if you don't play his game. If that isn't enough for you, nothing anyone else says will be.

OK, so the way not to lose against Talbain is not playing at all and force a draw after 45 minutes of boredomia. Maybe skilled players have the patience to do so, but I want to PLAY the game, meaning player interaction, and having fun. If we have to say to newbie players "look, if you encounter a Talbain deck, just don't do anything and draw", do you think these players will stay in the game? Unless the Talbain player is actually the one who loses the patience first and is the one starting playing.

A character that punishes the player who wants to play the game should not stay in the meta, even if he doesn't win big tourneys because the skilled players will just do nothing at all against him, instead of finding a way to beat him.

TaintedDoughnut said:

Having played with you since you started playing UFS, and having been your scout almost since you started playing, you have built exactly one agro deck. Everything else you have built has been around the basis of not taking damage and eventualy maybe possibly doing some to your opponent OR controling your opponent so bad that eventualy you ping them to death. You've stated to me on many occasions that you're just not good at building aggro decks, that thats not your style of play. Its not. Aggro is simply not your play style in any game. You play defensively. How do you play defensively in UFS? With some form of Control. The thing is thats alright with you as long as you're the one doing the controling. The moment someone starts controling what you can do you get upset.

The game hasn't, as far as I'm concerned, been going down a blind control path. Especialy not with characters like Chun-Li, Balrog, Remmy, and Kazuki just out of this set. Aggro is viable. Control is viable. Hybrid aggro/control is viable. Mill? Mill is probably the only thing thats not super viable. But Mill is control anyways which you don't want to be expanded. I'll tell you one thing though I don't spend my time looking over cards constantly. I glance at them now and then. The one thing I do do is read on here what others are doing and I look at the deck building forum.

If you want to get better I'm more than willing to help you if you actualy want to get better at playing the game. My first suggestion with that is toss your Chun-Li deck up on the deck building forums. See what others think. What suggestions they might have. What they suggest to make your deck better.

However if all you want to do is complain...well I'm not going to stop you from dropping the game. You did this when Bitter Rivals came out. You've gone on to no end about Olcadans (to the point of blaming losses on Olcadans that were played out but never used). You've complained about block 2 cards. And when given solutions and ways to deal with it you push them aside and continue to complain. I just don't have the time nor desire to deal with it if you're not going to even attempt to get better.

GouHadou said:

It gets worse.

With Seal of Cessation, he gets access to Death, meaning he gets access to Begin Anew's second effect.

He gets access, VERY EASILY, to the Rejection Defender Lord of the Makai defensive loop (Play Defender through Water, drop LotM once your opponent foolishly plays a foundation).

Need I go on?

First off, I did not see how this thread is more enlightening in terms of discussing the overpowering of JT's effects than a similar post that Fail2K posted several weeks back. Also, I find the keyword "banned" or its synonym used sparingly in the posts so I will use the word when I see fit.

I would like to draw your attention to the "rise", "dormant", "dominant", and "ban" phases of Ibuki**. When Ibuki** debut in the set of SF05 (Extreme Rivals), most players in our playgroup liked her and the support Ibuki generally get in the set. Immediately, a couple of players built decks for her. She did not win many local tournaments, not to mention consistently. Same picture emerged in the tourney season, she did top8 here and there but never close to winning something really big. She sees Cassandra winning the US Nat and Vega winning the World. Even with the release of the box topper "Higher Calibur", which later on almost everybody point the finger as the main supporter of her duty tricks, she did not rise to her "stardom" right there. "Ban", "Overpowering", "Broken", and "Watching" was never mentioned with her. Instead, she went from the "rise" to the "dormant" stage. Instead, Hugo gets all the Fortune and Glory, hype, ban-hammer, and the kitchen sink. Then comes the invasion of the Three Amigo, BRT, Addes, and my favourite Red Lotus and suddenly turned the landscape of UFS. Of course, with the remarkable decking building and piloting of Icarus, Ibuki** entered the phase of "dominant". Don't get me wrong, we did not see 8 Ibuki in 40+ players tournament this year, I think not even once. Its not a cheap deck to build anyway. In addition, it needs a control mind set to pilot the deck to play against other mill/control players and come out on top. And, the rule of diversity is in effect in all BIG tournies and you won't pilot her unless you think you are one of the best to pilot her. She is Domimant in the terms of: she is going to top 4 in very BIG tournament and win most of them; just banning one of her enablers would not change the scene of competition much; she limits the choices of designer in creating card effects... Then, came the heated debate, ban her, errata her, ban her business associates, her lawyers, and her husband, and at last, the ban-hammer knocked the pad and everthing else is history...

Talbain*** hit the street May 2008, right at the centre of the tourney season. I liked him and soon made my 8th bill deck for him. Although I didn't see too many Talbain decks in the metas I play, I suppose there are more people think he is good like I do. I didn't frequent forums except during the tournament season. I remembered I had seen zero thread mentioning the "overpowering" and "banworthy" of the card. Of course, at that time, our hands were full for Ibuki, Higher Calibur, and the like... I heard somebody piloted one in World tourney and was doing great with him, congratulation. I had then built my Geri-Loop Talbain*** but being a control player since day1, I didn't like the fact that the deck is potentially stopped by a couple of cards, thats my personal bias. While its debateable whether these was a "rise" phase for Talbain*** as I am the only player in my playgroups to play one at the time it came out, I considered Talbain*** is at sleep or "dormant" phase around "World" or after "World". He was just overshadowed by other characters and cards at that time. After I won my Good patch with Talbain***, I started to put together a multi-symbol Talbain*** deck. Although Vikramas had posted threads talking about advantages of multi-symboling and won a big tourney early this year with Evil/Fire Cody, multi-symboling didn't shine until after Ibuki** exited the stage. The results of Tri-symbol Dan shine in October's SAS definitely proved a point. My Tri-symbol Talbain's only loss pre-Team Canada Tournament was against a Tri-symbol Athena deck piloted by my teammate Ctrl2Yellowbird. After that, I decided to move my Rat Chasers from my side deck to my main deck to give me edge right on against Tri-symbol deck like Dan and Athena, and against card drawing experts like Alex. During Team Canada Tournament, my Tri-symbol Talbain*** deck was undefeated with only 1 draw. My only draw (0-0) was during top 4 against a well built Mill deck piloted by Dutpotd. Both of my teammates had won, I had done a load of damage, but he was about to draw to Revitalize(yes, it's legal in the tournament and I also ran it) next turn, so we handshaked for a draw. After Rank, Revitalize, and Addes were gone, I subbed in more water cards and took out more all cards. I have been playing Block 3 Tri-symbol Talabin*** several weeks now in tournaments, I lost a 3-game set (2-1) against block2/3 water Ukyo piloted by Shajir, I drew a 3-game set (1-1) against block2/3 Air Tira with Tsunami Kill piloted by Cos, I lost a 3-game set (2-0) to a block 3 water Talbain*** piloted by Loki5k. In casual play, I lost 1 game to Bishamon mill deck piloted by Brad and 1 game to Seong Mi-Na*** piloted by Adam. Their wins are attest to their skills and their experience with playing against Talbain*** for sometime now. With cards that needs to be banned gone and paying adequate cost for good/powerful effect as the new law and order in UFS, I can see Talbain*** prime to roar and tear the meta. He maybe not there yet but he is very close to reach the "dominant" phase.

I am no Legacy player, at least not yet. However, I did play the game since Day 1. To say Block 3 Talbain***, tri-symbol or not, can consistently beat any Legacy deck, I think it's a bit of a stretch. I think a well built order Legacy M.Bison* that played Law and Order, Startover, You will not escape, Ring Veteren, Blood Runs True, and Yoga Roundhouse Kick, maybe mixing a couple of Impetuous probably can take down Block 3 Talbain*** quite consistently... That being said, I don't think a character needs to consistently beat a deck like that to be ban-worthy come Block 3. Also, to say that if Talbain*** is not banned, there will be 8 Talbain*** in major Tournies and the playing field will become Talbain*** vs Anit-Talbain*** might not be realistic. A really good Block 3 Talbain deck will be a control heavy deck full of money cards. Diversity is still on effect next season and Talbain is not easy to sandwich in... I predict Talbain*** will be dominating like what Ibuki** does, top 4ing in most major tournies and winning a character card if not banned before World 09. Being a person who have been using Talbain for quite sometime now, I echo most reasons expressed in this thread and the thread of Fail2K about how unfair it is to play against Talbain***. Being a player, I can live with it whether the ban-hammer falls on Talbain*** or not, but I want it to be done in an open process and well before Tourney season. To build a deck and pilot it, try to trade and buy the cards/packs needed to play it takes time, money, practice, and thoughts. Personally, I don't like what happened last year when it's about 2-3 weeks before a character card tournament, Can Nat to be more specific, people are still talking and worrying about whether Ibuki** or Higher Calibur would get banned. I would suggest, in future Character card tournaments, organizing party will post the official banned list at least 1 month before the tournament. One more thing before I go: I prefer to ask ppl to be reasonable in their discussion about cards and need to be more cautious in their choice of words. On the other hand, I can also live with the fact that there will be no dicsussion about banning cards in General Discussion Forum. However, if thats the case, I would like the SoTG to talk about what cards are on the watch list in the Scout's forum. I don't want to stay in the dark and suddenly 1 month before a major tourney and find out several cards I planned to play in the tourney suddenly become ineligible. Thanks.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't see the value in a free draw against Talbain, and are more concerned with playing the game the way you feel it should be played, then you deserve whatever outcome that's in store for you. When I joined, the game toted the label as the game for hardcore tournament players. That label has since been stowed away to a less obvious status. Talbain only has his card draw ability if you don't play his game. If that isn't enough for you, nothing anyone else says will be.

First of all, thanks for the compliments about our playgroup ceejay, and in turn it must be said that you guys are absolutely terrific players and a blast to hang out with and play with. I won't soon forget my loss to Harold's brutal Akuma at SCC Teams in the final or my hilarious match with Alex playing Arrogance Alba at SAS that we drew. Fun times, btw you should call me or Scuba and we'll setup a visit to you guys if possible - we owe you for the trips you've made.

With that out of the way, I also got inadvertantly dragged into this discussion, as Tag is "complaining" about my current build of Talbain. To give you some background, I was fooling around with cards and talking to him about it and we were discussing his potential and whether to build him, and he said "I have yet to see a really cracked build of him though, you should make one". So I was like "sure, what the hell" and threw something together in 10 minutes. Then we ran it through a gauntlet that included B3 Seong Mi-Na Hybrid, B3 Sakura Control, B2 Zi Mei which was very similar to my SAS Teams-winning build, and it crushed everything. When I say that, I mean that the lowest vitality I got to in those matches was 22. Then Tag suggested that we throw hardcore Type 1 aggro at it and we had a friend who had 6CC Air Sagat and Furious Fire Adon handy, and it STILL crushed. Lowest vitality - against lineups featuring O-Throw, Glass Slippers, Strike Heads, Chain Throw, etc. - was 13. And in the few matches I've played since then, I haven't lost or come close so far.

Now, what does that mean exactly? That Talbain is unbeatable, and totally broken? I don't know. What I do know is that he is exceptionally strong and very difficult to play against even for an experienced player. Ceejay, your argument MIGHT have been true prior to the latest set release, but now with Illegal Maneuvers that is gone out the window. There is exactly one foundation that Talbain needs to win the game in a Spike build, and that's LOTM. So all I have to do is play my assets out turn after turn - I run well over 20, nearly 30 in my 70-card version - and then drop Illegal Maneuvers/LOTM at some point with a Spike in hand and win. And I have White Gi and Heirloom in my deck as well as about 20 6CCs, so I can hardcheck it with no foundations if I have to. There is no forced draw plan anymore. And I am confortable waiting - the pressure is entirely on my opponent to do something, meanwhile I'm dropping White and Yellow Gis, Heirlooms, King's Games (SO GOOD), Mysterious Stance, Olcadan's, and Lynette's in case my opponent wants to actually break this up and play ball. So, forget about the draw.

I know some of you have been reading the comments about Talbain and scratching your head, since there isn't really a Tier 1 decklist posted that I've seen. To remedy that, I will post my decklist along with explanations of how to play him and my specific card choices, if that helps. But I will say that two players who I have immense respect for, and both of whom have tons of credibility in building and playing - Fred and Jeremy Ray - are the ones who brought it up as a problem, and THAT was what initially caught my attention. So you can be **** sure that the folks in Michigan and New York - 2 of the top 3 areas for competitive UFS in the nation - will be utterly prepared to play with and against the deck come tournament season, and I bet those deviously quiet folks in Ohio will too. So I would suggest that you proxy up a copy of it if you have to and test the hell out of it.

Based on what I have seen so far, there is no obvious answer or solution to Talbain. I defy you to give me an easy answer to this question - what is Talbain's weakness? He has a large vitality, a 6HS with an automatic DOTE every other turn, and his static ability FORCES your opponent to play on his terms immediately and with literally NO answer to it. Even Elena and Yun-Seong, two characters I've always hated with a passion due to their ability to "cheat" the game, can be countered in numerous ways, with say Tag Along or Bringing The Master To His Knees right out of the gate. What card, combination, character, or deck scares Talbain at all right now? Nothing.

Tainted Doughnut, you started this thread stating that you had a solution to the Talbain problem. As has been pointed out by Tag, Omar, and others - including your own scout - that isn't really a solution. I am NOT telling anyone that Talbain needs to be banned immediately - there is no data as of yet to suggest that would be worth it, so I think we will have to see how it plays out in the course of the tournament season. And if I can go to the GCC, I will take him there with me, and if not then expect to see him in Orlando in March if he's still legal.

What I AM saying, explicitly, is that Talbain is very, very, very overpowered right now with his abilities and symbol spread. He has access to 75% of the best control cards currently in the game off of All, lots of damage mitigation + Feline Spike and Red Lotus in Good, and additional mitigation and kill conditions off of Water if necessary. He breaks a fundamental rule of the game and unlike those characters that have come before, there is definitely no way to counteract it because it's static.

So for those who think the "top players" are just complaining for no reason or a bunch of whiners with lots of money cards and no skill, I challenge you to prove that assumption. After I post my deck, take a hard look at it and tell me how terrible it is, how it can be beat, why my choices are awful, how to deal with the foundation/asset base, what resources and characters laugh at Talbain, and so forth. Us "top players" are genuinely curious for the answer, at least in my case. The only thing I have seen that can possibly, maybe hurt him are Elena/Felicia FTK builds and even then that's a longshot if they get lucky. Otherwise, I strongly advise you to keep silent and just test as much as you can with what you got and what you know.

Put it this way, I thought Cassandra was bad...and Talbain would eat her alive.

Thanks for the enlightening exposition, Vik. We'll take this new tech into account and get back to you after some testing. It looks bad to be sure.

Not to say that Talbain isn't overpowered, but isn't the real issue here the Rejections, LoTMs, etc.? The reason JT is an apparent problem, in my opinion, may not necessarily be because he himself is too powerful and likely needs a ban, but because he happens to make the best use of (and uses the most number of) all the actual problem cards that are blatantly overpowered and will likely need a ban.

i would have to say talbain is broken. he just can't be stoped by 90% of the decks out their. unlese you are specifically trying to counter him he is nigh imposible to beat. unfortunettely tainted i think the banhammer is coming.

I have been pondering the talbain issue since last night and now it is time for me to weigh in on the issue.

Talbain. The wolfman. Needs to be band. I know we have discussed this issue together for months TD along with Olcadon's and such. But considering the wolfman, he is a threat that recquires little to no skill to play in a tri-symbol deck or any other deckbuild, single or dual symboled. This in turn leads to jankiness that makes for an unpleasant experiance. If you are wondering why I have suddenly changed my mind, than try to sit back and veiw it from every perspective, from tournament scene to even casual. From pro players to gamers trying to have fun. Wolfy unfortunately leads to a NPE and you should know. The last leaugue tourney I versed you in before I went to dayside, you used him against me. I got frusterated and you knew I did. Your answer to Talbain was presented by BlindProphet. To try and clear up confusion for you guys, this is how the strategy is implemented. While assests was mentioned by Tainted, the strategy was not fully expounded upon.

Lets say you go first, you don't just play assests you play attacks or just attacks if you have no assests to play. On JT's turn, you set up your foundations due to how his static text works. In short, you sort of play in reverse.

Now, as I have read the thread, I have become a bit disappointed in ya TD. When you put up JT answers, the thread in and of itself should have been focused on finding ways to handle JT. Instead, you mentioned a few things that is not relevant to the answers part. In short, it has become a rant that has teeter of course. As far as i am concerned and you might not like it, this needs to be deleted and never messed with again.

TaintedDoughnut said:

And with your deck of 20+ assets without illigal manuvers, would you take it to worlds or any card gaining nationals event?

as per your "oh use Silver Spoon (4/4 FOUNDATION) or Bitter Rivals (3/4 FOUNDATION) to stop reversals" but the problem with that is that wolfy gets to drop his own foundations, like control ones to deal with silver spoon and bitter rivals.

Talbain is more of a control character then an aggro character

The main thing that people think he needs to go is the fact that you cannot touch his abilities, them being always active and all. Just like promo alba, cant stop him directly. If the ability to drop foundations was along the lines of " R: after a player plays a foundation, you may add a foundation you could normally play from your hand to your staging area committed, playable while committed, playable by either player." there would more then likely less issues since there are answers for responses.

sure lets get more characters that can push past control, but not with a pile of completely untouchable abilities.

Mt_Do said:

Goddamnit you just doomed the thread!

Also, I have found a way to beat Talbain, but it involves nuking him from orbit (it's the only way to be sure). How do you do that? Beyond T2-T3, it's impossible. Too much draw, not enough answers.

So you have a minute time period to kill him in. Go for the high damage attacks, or hope he doesn't heal in his T2-3 so you can finish him off next turn.

Homme Chapeau said:

but to play most of those high damage attacks, you need foundations to deal with the higher difficulties, which in turn means that you will be giving him his free foundations which will then make it harder for those higher damage attacks to hit, or to have the damage delt stay put, since talbain has access to lots of the life gain.

Homme Chapeau said:

whoops, i think u are right. I think i did **** the thread. Now it does need to be brought to an end. I am so full of epic fail today. I'll post tommorow.

Mt_Do said:

Well this thread has taught me one thing. I don't think I want to play the game anymore. Honestly the community is great at making people NOT want to play the game and congrats on it another victim. So as of now I'm out.

Don't think I am going to be messed...meh

I should start by stating that my post does not pertain to J. Talbain but rather to the thread itself and its end result. As I reflected upon those two concerns, I became compelled to "contribute" the following:

Mt_Do said:

Now, as I have read the thread, I have become a bit disappointed in ya TD. When you put up JT answers, the thread in and of itself should have been focused on finding ways to handle JT. Instead, you mentioned a few things that is not relevant to the answers part. In short, it has become a rant that has teeter of course. As far as i am concerned and you might not like it, this needs to be deleted and never messed with again.

Well this thread has taught me one thing. I don't think I want to play the game anymore. Honestly the community is great at making people NOT want to play the game and congrats on it another victim. So as of now I'm out.

Don't think I am going to be messed...meh

This is what happens when we open a can of worms--some J. Talbain worms (i.e., players) are bound get stepped on. The idea that we need a character like J. Talbain to keep the game in a state of flux is certainly worth defending, BUT... and a torrent of counter-arguments ensue whose totality is viscerally overwhelming. Thus, a crushing weight consumes the idea's originator, finally and literally squishing him as it would squish the figurative J.T. worm. J.T. threads are disasters waiting to happen, inherently doomed to a singular fate, a loaded topic, and--as I have already most succinctly put--the opening of worm cans. I believe that the aforementioned defense of J.T. is entirely valid, except that J.T. exists in an environment with no equal. Until more "relevantly powered" Characters, cards, and archetypes emerge, J.T. will exist with no fair countermeasures and will be a cause of great disquietude.

What lesson can we all take from this thread and its probable recourse on TD? I'd posit that UFS remains as advertised--a hardcore game-- and those of us who can't weather its torrid punishments fall through its cracks. Only the most dogmatic or resourceful/adaptive minds are assured eternal gaming plunder, while the rest of us are subjects to conformations both ideological (i.e., from players) and systematic (i.e., from the game). Going off on a tangent with the promise of a sharp return, I have been exploring the root causes for some personal inadequacies. Now, I discuss many unworldly topics with my father, and, in a surprising revelation that contradicts his earthly outlook, he happened to mention a mentality, discovered through experience, that he called "The Syndrome." Basically, a person is aware of a problem, and yet they consciously choose to ignore it or feed it. I identified with that summary and instantly reminisced upon a time when I followed a code that refuses to passively accept any problem without some level of confrontation. Taking that diversion into perspective for the pitfall of a hardcore game like UFS, players can:

a. Ignore the game's problems (through gameplay). This is often referred to as "playing for fun."

b. Confront the game's problems (through gameplay). This should be deemed "competitive play."

c. Accept that they have problems with the game, but produce no wholesome attempts to solve them.

The first two choices are healthy determinations on the part of the player, but I find that the last option incurs a detrimental and self-destructive relationship with the game. Thinking this, I believe that players who fall under the third category will eventually resolve its issue by either quitting the game out of despair or decisively defaulting toward their natural game-playing motivation. As I previously mentioned, I had always opted to confront problems, so I would naturally have chosen competitive play. I always found the challenge of mastering and ultimate mastery of my former tormentors redeeming and worthwhile on many levels. Consider that if you plan on quitting the game.

This "analysis" is just one "state of the game".

TaintedDoughnut said:

If you're incapable of standing up for your opinions and hashing them out with a community who carries differing opinions, then you shouldn't have made this thread in the first place.

It's the sign of a forumer who thought their post was going to be some sort of rallying point. And when people called you on it, your stumbling and poorly thought out responses showed that you were not prepared to logically defend your opinion, you were only prepared for people to fall in line behind you.

It doesn't help that 80% of your points "for" Talbain are never explored beyond the most shallow of levels and anybody with the ability to look a little deeper reversed the exact same points on you to show why Talbain is actually a problem instead of a boon to this meta.

I'm being harsh because I'm sick of this "take my toys and play elsewhere" mentality people adopt when people don't agree with them 100%. As yellowbird said, TD got crushed by opposing opinion, but instead of sticking the fight out he ran away.

As to my opinion on Talbain? I will confess I have not once played a single match against a Talbain deck. Primarily because I haven't played an actual game of UFS in close to 2 months now. Aside from that, what do I think of him?

I think he's the single largest character to watch out for, both as a character to be dealt with on an official level and as a character to prepare to face in a tournament. The sheer fact of the matter that there is not one single "hard" answer to his abilities unnerves me, I don't like it from a designer standpoint and I don't like it from a player standpoint because he says "From turn 0 onwards, you play the game my way and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it"

Yes you can play "around" Talbain, but anybody with any sort of forward logic can recognize that by playing "around" Talbain you are still actually playing the game his way.

In summation: We'll see where the upcoming regional events take us.

Edit note: I'd also just like to point out that TD didn't help his argument by showing his obvious bias towards Talbain with his avatar choice. If you're going to open this kind o' can o' worms you need to be as unbiased as possible, or else people will just dismiss your arguments as the what they actually are, the bias of a Talbain fan/player instead of a fan/player of UFS. His signature doesn't exactly help his QQ image either.

ceejaybee wrote - "Of all the people to hear complain about him, you surprise me the most Tag. When I saw how you played against Seong Mi-na at the SAS, I thought you would have been able to draw the similar parallel. It's pretty much the same scenario."

To start, I've tried similar and it just doesn't work.

Note also, Vik touched upon this and I thought I'd just reiterate it real quick - locally we had one of our best Aggro players from the legacy days try to tear down Vik's new Talbain deck, and it was unable to do so even in one single game. 8 hand size Legacy Adon is probably the most brutal aggro deck you can come up with - high control checks, dropping a plethora of Throws turn after turn, and the lowest Talbain ever got to was 13. Before regaining most of it shortly thereafter.

Legacy Air aggro was unable to do it, either - with Shadow Banishment, Overhand Throw, Glass Slippers, and Strike Heads flying everywhere.

So neither 20+ damage Glass Slippers nor Air Throw Hell were able to do the job.

Sounds to me like Talbain counters aggro just as well as he counters control.

TaintedDoughnut said:

I'm gonna add one last thing directed at you, should you care to read it, since you don't seem to understand what people are saying... and I'm going to put it in nice bold letters to drive the point home in a typical internet-jerk manner...

TALBAIN IS NOT A COUNTER TO CONTROL

HE IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF CONTROL

AND AGGRO CANNOT COUNTER HIM EFFECTIVELY

I'm asking again: has anybody tried a Talbain vs Talbain match? Am I correct at saying that they could drop 2 foundations at once when the opponent plays one? Would they just keep playing assets and maybe Illegal Maneuvers?

As promised, I've posted my deck in the forums as a point of reference, you can find it here: http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=27&efcid=5&efidt=33774.

As for Tainted Doughnut, Brett put it best so I'm done here.

So I dont know what all this talk about talbain being this control character is. Ive been playing him aggro as of late and its DEVISTATING. Not only can he control better than 99% of the gaming population, he can aggro better too. Case and point:

Excluding mirror matches / other talbain decks I've won many games with JUST 1 foundation. If my opponent plays just one foundation I can play budhist devotion and on my subsequent turn use it to play natural leader and soul of ling seng su. That means all I need is a 4 to pass a check for feline spike. Once spike is played its stun takes care of the foundations they just got and its often fatal enough to kill. My opponent is hard pressed to block because if they do so with foundations they are in even more trouble, and since when playing agaisnt talbain you tend to hold foundations in your hand thats probably going to be your only option. and after all is said and done, talbain still gets a free hand after that if his opponent is still alive.

I think honestly, talbains ability set isnt specifically the problem. Even the fact that he has no hard counters. Its his hand size / Vit. When you combine his abilities/symbols/handsize/vitality and the fact that he has another 4 point version which increases hand size when he redraws his hand and offers speed boosting its the perfect storm of crap that makes him too good. I think that if he was a 5 HS character with less vit people wouldnt care as much because you could outpace him if you foundation spam, but 6 HS means he sees 12-18 cards by the time you see 7.

I think something needs to happen. Honestly itll prob HAVE to be a banning because we all know the stance on eratta and blankly i cant think of another way to beat him. Unless they make some characters that can consistently pummel a character with 28 life / a full hand / rejection / mysterious stance and have thoes characters themselves not be silly broken then I cannot see how he can stay around.

kiit said:

Which is why there's a time limit. After T3, your chance is down to nil.

To tell you the truth, I've been meaning to build a deck with simply assets and Illegal Maneuvers ever since I laid eyes on it.

It's not any less broken because there are answers to him. There's nothing you can do about continuous text. In fact, the one way to fix him would be to errata so the foundation dupe is actually a response playable by both players and the the opponent may also play the ability even when committed. This will at least allow negation to do something to stop it.

As it is, it's pretty stupid.