Alright there has been alot of call to get ole Mr. JT banned. FIrst of all I'm against it for one reason but also going to give an answer to him that I've seen.

First why I have only seen the upper tier players complaining. BEcause he gives people that haven't spent alot of money on power cards a chance. He levels the field and it just seems like people at the top don't think there is any more room up there for a new idea that isn't theirs.

Now an answer.. Okay JT is gonna make you go first to fuel off your foundations. Slow him down play ASSESTS WOW. Ya know he can't dupe them. So now if Captain puppy wants to go hes gonna have to play a foundation or sit. Well if he sits play some low diff attacks pump them up with assests. So with no fundations to commit to pass blocks gonna be forced to play the foundations.

Thanks to Blind Prophet for the Talbain answer.

TaintedDoughnut said:

That's like saying poor players should be allowed to play Addes Syndicate and Military Rank since they can't afford the legal power cards. What a horrible statement.

If it's that powerful in normal players' hands, it's that much more unfair in skilled hands.

TaintedDoughnut said:

Most decks can't win off just Assets, and most decks just flat out don't run that many assets.

Talbain's handful of foundations and mountain of assets will probably be geared toward survival (for example Mysterious Stance and Assassination Arts), and he has 28 starting vitality. And can play Rejection.

See, you say he isn't gonna have foundations to commit to pass blocks, but on that same vein, you don't have foundations to commit to pass attacks, doubly so if he gets out a couple Mysterious Stances and plays one single foundation - Lord of the Makai.

This post is just short sighted. First and foremost as tag mentoned you really cant win against JT with assets alone, he knows that's whats going to come at him. By saying just play assets your not giving us a real way to beat him, your just listing a way to slow him down. What assets should you be playing. which of them help you win?

Second of all JT does NOT NOT NOT allow poor players to win. Not even close. Hes plenty devistating running all the power cards he can just like any other character, but he does it better. Ive seen JT decks with full compliments of spinning beats, Feline spikes, seal of cease, lotm, chesters, and more kick alot of but and more so than someone that didnt have thoes cards.

Ive also seen talbain win turn one a few more times than i would think is ok.

There is also the whole if he blocks with foundations you get to place one down.

I just generaly see everyone come up with more reasons to cry about him than to try and beat him. The same people that ya know pull in titles and defend cards like ocladons. Hes a good character that yes has nice abilities. I personaly don't even play that talbain I play the promo version. But it's just a different version of thinking needed to play against talbain thats it. Think outside the box.. break the mold a bit. I've been in the top tier of several games 3 national invites in the old mechwarrior one of the top Wood elf players by ratings in the world for warhammer fantasy in the last campaign. I bring in lots of gaming wins. And while I might think a few cards need to go myself theres not much in the line of characters that can't be worked around including Talbain. Point is I win by being flexible in games and that is something UFS needs more of rather than constantly having one all powerfull symbol and 2-3 characters. In fact it is the most inflexible game I have played with certain mechanics having more stops than ways to play

People seem to want the game to be one way he just makes it a bit different bit flexible learn to bend a bit stop playing the same style all the time. Like at ECC where I played the same deck all day just different faces. Nice to see a talbain that shakes it up. If UFS is meant to be one thing and one thing only why have anything but agro..or anything but control. But seems to be everyone wants to swing a ban hammer at something different thats jut a bit trickery to defend against that might defeat the old guard cheddar with gasp difference. Sure I am going to get bad mouthed insulted what not for saying it but ya know just my opinion.

I like him because he gives people without the monetary resources to go hunting for ya know a set of feline spikes and everything else a chance. If you want the game to be all about who can afford the richest cards hooray capitolism but than boo for fun. And don't we play for fun?

End of the day hes an Equalizer in a way. Not a conventional deck but he is beatable just some extra effort. Keep around ole woofie around and just bend a bit.

TaintedDoughnut said:

Why would he do that when he has so many other, better options? Like blocking with assets or actions... or just not blocking?

TaintedDoughnut said:

Do you really think nobody's tried that?

Vik is currently testing a block 3 Talbain3 build that has currently gone undefeated even against several Legacy aggro decks. yeah, that's right, Legacy aggro can't take him down. I'm talking like 8 hand size Adon, someone who should in theory even be able to out-build the big bad wolf, using Throws that still don't faze the wolfman.

The problem with Talbain is THERE IS NO ANSWER TO HIS ABILITY. None at all. there is no card that says "Until the end of the turn, players may not add foundations from their hand to their staging area." even then, that'd be a rather... questionable silver bullet that would probably not see play unless the metagame truly became Talbain vs. Not Talbain... which would basically be the banning point.

TaintedDoughnut said:

What does Mechwarrior have to do with UFS?

TaintedDoughnut said:

He does not make the game a bit different. Right now the game is control, control, and more control. Aggro is currently horrible. What does Talbain do? He ends up being an insane turtle/tank control character. Same as every other viable deck in the format right now. And as I said before, even Legacy aggro has extreme trouble taking Block 3 Talbain down.

TaintedDoughnut said:

He's not an equalizer. He gives people with low income a competitive edge but not against the people with high income who can simply run the richest cards - chester's, defender, rejection, spike, et al. - WITH him and dominate completely.

Look at it this way, if the character is SO POWERFUL that his ability allows a weak deck to take down a strong one, doesn't that tell you something is WRONG?!

I seem to have missed the train on this one. Can some one fill me in with a coherent explanation?

Tagrineth said:

So by that only people that are willing to spend tons of money should be allowed to win a game? Whats wrong with that statement?

As for experience I know what it's like to be a top notch competitor and that was a game where blowing hundreds on pieces didn't gurrantee a win no matter what you tried. It comes down to in UFS from what I have seen Money wins more than skill. spend the money get every set of cards you want and well thats that. What happened to a game where you could by a starter some packs and stand a chance.?

Frankly I've seen more negative in the UFS community about cards than anything else. When a solution comes to something everyone hates what do they do keep finding ways to complain and cry about it rather than go ..'hey that might work.' I see nothing but that inflexibility which is brough on largely by the majority of the cards which keep most mechanics from being viable.

The US government is built on checks and balances UFS needs some of those I see Talbain as one of them. And as flawed as the government it is certainly working better than diversity in UFS...

Because when something different comes along it has to get cried and baned to keep the status quo going. Sorry but that makes me NOT want to play the game if the community is going to keep out difference in the sake of maintaining their titles and high notes. Sorry but if thats what it means to play UFS to shun diversity in the game and diffrence well I will stop promoting it and bringing in new players with promises of an awesome game with lots of cool stuff. Say something more along the lines of. 'Yeah there are different symbols but only one at a time is ever playable because people cry to much to get anything different happening at once."

Diversity makes things good difference is good. And if it takes one character that might be a bit powerful(still say it's lack of flexible thought) to break the stranglehold over one mechanic that has been pretty much reigning over the majority of the scene for so long well change is good..gooooood...gooooood It is your friend.

Again say what you want but if some more diversity in the game dosen't start appearing well it's going to get boring and fast. Personaly I get tired of playing the same basic idea in a game that is suppose to have many ways to play. A game that dosen't punish players for maybe not having the money to spend a months pay for a college student or high school student on cards to keep up. Every anti-talbain arguement always includes use of high dollar cards. Getting to the point where it is cheaper to buy a Games workshop army than build a competitive deck...THATS INSANE.

I'm being the bad guy and defending Talbain after hearing alot of high placing players say how he needs the banhammer. Long and short of it. I expect to be considered a total outcast and shuned for it but eh yeah know decenting opinions make the country great and being the bad guy is what needs to be done at times.

Your point and Tag's are apples and oranges. Have vs. Not-have is VERY different from strong vs. weak.

Look at it this way - several of the top players in the game are flat-out stating that Talbain is currently a big annoyance in the meta, and will soon become a problem. As they're some of the best players in the game, wouldn't logic dictate that they probably have an idea of what they're talking about?

Personally, I recognize Talbain's stupidity because I've experienced it firsthand. I'm by no means a "money" player (though I certainly keep stock of good cards that I like - I just finished my playset of Darkness Blade and do not own or want Feline Spikes), and I'm not looking forward to facing a horde of Talbains come February (still looking forward to the GCC, though). The ultimate problem is Talbain's abilities being static, simple as that. If they were an E, F, or R - played abilities - there'd be plenty of answers and he would be really annoying but not too busted. But they're not.

I do, however, recognize your right to a good discussion. Just hoping we can keep it friendly, and in perspective. One of the most important parts to having a discussion is to keep an open mind, and realize that, as human beings, we are all fallible and thus capable of being wrong.

I'm playing devils advocate more than anything. I can site plenty of evidence for not banning Talbain. And I can understand why people want him gone. But honestly if he goes I think that opens up a whole new can of worms for why is that allowed when you can play something like lesser of many evils followed by a defender loop and get an auto win in alot of cases...If Talbain is so bad that is just as bad. BUt people defend the Loop.

And just because players are at the top dosen't mean they can't be wrong...Look at politicias they are at the top and well if they are always right I'm Captain America.

BUt I do stand by that UFS shouldn't be about money cards and I see the Talbain deck as a way to ya know win without money cards against someone who plays money.. With the current sets it is sort of turning into .. E: mug your opponent to afford your deck.

R: shank your opponent take his deck and run.

to echo goose, please keep the money argument out of this. people who want something bad enough will find a way to get it. if it means doing errands or finding an oddjob for the cash to spend on their hobby, they'll do it. so the "i don't have enough money for my hobby which requires money to enjoy" argument is... complete... bull. that's as lightly as i can put it.

if everyone is so poor, how do they afford next gen systems and video games? they're too poor to buy them, how did they get them in the first place? are you starting to see how the money angle of the talbain argument is ridiculous?

arguing from the game system's standpoint, talbain is broken, as promo YunS was broken - they have abilities that stand the rules on their head (starting the game ready and putting foundations into play w/o paying any sort of cost). Talbain has a high chance to win games a full turn or 3 before the same exact deck fronted by a different character could dream of. try it. switch talbain to another other character that matches the deck's resources and make a record of how it does. then compare it to talbain.

Talbain has won a championship card this season, at Canadian Team Nationals, and has made top cuts nearly everywhere. the skilled/top players you seem to hate so much are the skilled/top players for a reason - either they beat the crap out of the wolf, or they ran the wolf. no deck is unbeatable, but there are those decks that are so overpowered that it takes a singular specific strategy/deckstyle to have a reasonable chance against it. then those types of decks fall against pretty much everything else which is more solidly built to handle a wide range of situations.

this version of talbain is a problem, and it's mostly because he doesn't have any activated abilities, and refills his hand every other turn, just for GIGGLES, it seems. you want a character that can be built cheaply and give an opponent a run for his money?

Starter deck :::Akuma::: - THERE is a character that has very strong abilities, but, like most other characters in the game, can be controlled by being committed, or running things like Tag Along. Talbain is above and beyond strong, he's overpowered.

TaintedDoughnut said:

......you're comparing a 4 card combo to a card that you begin the game with, who can be used immediately for profit?

LoME can be Owlfaced. defender can be harecaked. [remember that both have to survive a turn in play.] the attacks that have to deal damage can be zeroed. you can fail the checks for those attacks. any of these E's can be negated.

you can do nothing about the wolf's abilities. nothing

So far I still hear nothing but people upset because he is different. Sorry still not convinced. And commonly I am just being personaly insulted as a retort thats not really proving anything either. Sorry but if thats what it boils down thats not saying much for top players who can insult someone for having a difference of opinion on what they think a game should be.

So let me get this right Variety is a NO NO. And to play you need to go out of your way to spend excessive amounts of money. Thats the counter to Talbain. Because as I've had laid out before my own eyes ways to stop him. But no one wants to touch them because just to diffrent from the normal. Rather just tell me I know nothing and all. Thats fine everyone is entitled to their opinion but lines are crossed when your telling me I am stupid in veiled ways sorry but all respect for is gone now for you.

TaintedDoughnut said:

i preface the rest of this post with an ACTUAL thinly veiled insult, so you may know the difference between that, and what everyone else here is doing, which is attacking your idea. no one is attacking you personally, except you yourself:

"Allow Me To Educate You"

now that that's out of the way. different is the fact that he has hair growing out of curious places. there are plenty of ways that a character can be different without being overpowered. Matt Kohls, before receiving errata, was different too. so was starter deck abyss. rare cassy was different too... and promo dhalsim, and on down the line.

the only positive argument FOR the wolf i have seen you make is "he plays the game differently." fine, i acknowledge that point to you. then, in turn, you must acknowledge me that very same point, and the host of others that go along with it. did you ever read Vik's article "The Fallacy of Equality" i believe it was called? it brought to light game mechanics, that on their face, seemed fair, since the event happened to both players. like, both players draw 2 cards. or both players lose all their foundations. or both players gain 20 vitality. they SEEM fair because it's an equal dose to both players, but, when you analyze the situation closely, it never IS truly fair, because the person playing the effect can always capitalize upon it because their deck is built on that.

-in a mill deck, both players drawing the same amount of cards is always a detriment to the opponent, as they lose cards from their deck, and you now have more cards in hand with which to further your goal.
-mass foundation destruction: you can play foundations before and after the effect, thereby ending your turn with foundations, and the opponent with none.
-both players gain vitality: if your deck doesn't deal damage to win, who cares how much they gain?

all of this applies to talbain. in fact, he can even run those very same principles in his deck, between antisocial for dual draw, begin anew for destruction, and... oh... revitalize was banned, so now he just uses something worse which is completely lopsided - Rejection. his deck lasts much longer in a controlled game because he doesn't need to make as many control checks, and can afford to run a very high difficulty curve of foundations which most decks can't - simply because he plays them freely. he can spam assets and the only foundation he'd play normally would be illegal maneuvers, since it lets him commit his assets as foundations. with all of this going for him, playing against him is always an uphill battle, as every card you spend resources to play, he gets one free. and that's if you get around BRTs.

why is it so hard for you to admit that he's overly strong? that he's an incredible problem from a tournament point of view, and VERY restricting from a designer's point of view? (every foundation AND asset printed while he's legal has to be very carefully tested to make sure it isn't broken with the wolfman)

i'm not calling for him to be banned, but i wouldn't shed a tear over it if he got the axe. what does get me riled up is anyone thinking that he's ok, or healthy for this game as you seem to argue.

tl;dr version - no one is calling YOU stupid, just your argument. so quit making accusations. we can go grab a pizza later

Well, I believe the other players arguement are trying to state is that (and stop me if I'm wrong) JT actually HINDERS diversity. In high play, the deck is either a deck to counter JT, or JT himself. Now I don't know if high play meta is there yet, but I'm pretty sure that is the fear if he stays for another year. I will say that the way you went about listing the counters was a bit mockingly, so a backlash should have been expected, but thats how it came across to me. Now you did list at least one counter to him, which was to play assets instead of foundations. The thing about that, is that there are not a ton of viable assets for a lot of characters. JT himself does this strategy because its how he stops his opponent from benefiting from his effect on his turn, and because of his symbol spread. good gives him amazing damage reducers like mystery stance, which is fueled off all (LotM, and later, illegal manuevers in the new set will let him pass his checks with assets if he wants to, but thats another discussion), and water which gives him the kill cards. Theres not many characters that can be really run like that efficiently , and they can't do it nearly as well as JT can. So really, if you want to run a deck whos strategy is to play mostly assets and getting an occasional foundation out, before playing your killing attacks...why not just play Talbain? Hence the arguement against Talbain. The counter against him (at least the only one I saw in this thread, sorry if I missed others) is to play a deck that either plays just like him, or is him. At that point, there really isn't any diversity that you clearly want. Personally, I think that the newest set has a lot of really good characters, as well as good cards that aren't super rare and will defore be not ball bustingly expensive.

Just a quick thing on the money arguement, there will always be cards that will be highly valued due to its ability/rarity. The result is an increase in price. This is something thats in every CCG...ever. I think UFS has some of the more "cheaper" cards for its rarity. Ever see what a Black Lotus go for?

This of course, is just my opinion.

I'm going to stand by the statement the Wolf is fine on difference alone no matter what.

Look at what happens to different in ufs however

MILL- Well I think we will see it come back as I haven't gotten anything but Silence about it's demise. Time for return when Jurassic park is no longer fiction this mechanic might be back

Aggro Variants

Reversals- MOre ways to stop them than play them

Multiples-See Reversals

Playing this game for over a year now it is UCS not UFS

Universal Control System(correct me if I am wrong but in fighting games you ya know punch people in the face right not stare intently and try to pysch out your console)

UNiversal Control System...so a character that totaly nips that Control factor that everyone worships like the porcelin throne after an all night bender Is JUST what is needed to encourage something else....It's not so hard to see a puppy hold back a second rethink your ingame desicions. It's flexibility from all I've seen of play people want to play one way the game to go exactly one way no matter what not be flexible at all for anything. To me that is slowly making the game ultra stagnant and boring. Until more than one mehchanic is going to be competitive well your going to need Talbain to keep people from being clones. .. Soon you'll need to execute order 66 or something if some variety dosen't hit.

Cost of the game. can't deny getting all the top tournament cards can bankrupt someone without enough money. When one play set alone can run as much as a next gen system(maybe not with the best HD) might be time look at where the strengths on some of the cards need to be. Clearly it's becoming down to a cold-waresque arms race in some ways. Again why I like talbain he kinda says hey you don't need a fortune to be good just some thinking.

TaintedDoughnut said:

The most played attack right now is Feline Spike...just saying.

TaintedDoughnut said:

I think I'm starting to see where theres a breakdown in communication. So your arguement for Talbain, is that hes different in not only in how he plays, but different in that he counters control? This is where I'm a bit confused. Right now, the most common way he's played, in high tournement at least, is a control deck. He stays alive, mess with your field using things like Owlface and the like, until he can kill you with Feline Spike and such. Now from what your saying is that he is great because he's flexible enough to be run as a great aggro character that counters hard control? The other thing that makes this confusing is that you have stated that you don't play this version of Talbain, which leads me to question your experience in this subject matter. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but have you built or played against this Talbain like the control version, or any other one you feel would be competetive?

First of all, I'll quote myself from another thread:

I'm wondering if you've played another Talbain deck yet and what happened if you did. If my interpretation of the rules is correct, in such a match whenever one of them played a foundation then his opponent should be able to drop TWO foundations to his staging area . If both decks are prepared for not playing foundations and relaying on waiting for the opponent to do so, who would start playing foundations?

This mirror match-up can be as crazy as Ibuki** vs herself, with their R responding to each other R over and over.

And about releasing some silver bullet against the wolfman (no pun intended), I just don't see how as his abilities are continuous and the draw one doesn't happen in the combat phase. Even Rat Chaser was ruled by Tag not to work against that. The only thing I can think of is a foundation that prevents cards to enter a staging area during the combat phase, similar to Mortal Strike or Greed's Influence. With all the shenanigans involving that strategy since many sets ago (like Promo Yun-Seong), I'm surprised we've never had something like that.

I don't buy this "be like Talbain, my friend, and play assets instead of foundations" when playing against Talbain without being Talbain. His deck is prepared to do so, and yours shouldn't need to be, and his hand re-filling helps him a lot on that. A match like that is totally busted, when nobody plays foundations, which is one of the pillars of this game. Talbain also has access to Yoga Adept to nullify your just played asset or foundation (and is an ALL character), and doesn't care about the 2CC since he doesn't do CCs for foundations that much.

Few decks can win without foundations (that's the way the game has been made), but for example Talbain can still deliver a significant damage with just Lord of the Makai and any multiple attack, with Seichu being the best option in Block2.

While I agree that the metagame right now favors control too much, Talbain is just much more control. He controls the way you play your foundatios, and has access to ridiculous control cards like Yoga Adept, Blood Runs True, Chester's Backing, Olcadan's Mentoring, Seal of Cessation, Saikyo-Ryu (hand destruction and the cost is almost free for him), Bitter Rivals (attack zone control and potential discard), Red Lotus (anti-control) etc. And when he is in control, kill you in one shot, turn or loop.

Talbain is also inmune to control lock-down decks via stuff like CC-Hax, since he can keep dropping foundations. However, this is a good thing since those decks usually are big NPE for the other players.

Just how many assets does a regular deck play, outside of the total obligated 4 Olcadan's? Most control-oriented decks will also have 4 Seals of Cessation, but not everybody runs Lynette's Shop. Talbain will have those 12 for sure, and some more depending on deck construction, like Assassination Arts, Mysterious Stance, etc.

A powerful Talbain deck can be made with cheap cards, but a top tier one can have many power cards at the same time (some of them can't be seen together in the same deck), like Chester's, Blood Runs True, Feline Spike, Defender, Lord of the Makai, etc.

Call me crazy on assests but I have run a deck with 20+ assests in it with Interpool badges cats reflexes talismans of the elements lightfooteded stance and something else(tradin'getting all of them on loan is a hassle but it was a hillarious deck) so I don't see assests as a problem as assests tend to be underrated minus the OP owlface.

As for reversals being to easy to counter and feline spike the most popular attack..Can name two cards right off the bat that will stop it..Silver Spoon. Bitter rivals to just discard it. Unless you play it on your turn first thing or stack keyword abilities in your hand.

Talbain again..Hes is needed to get around control until control gets balanced out maybe once control stops being the only way to play I will think idfferently but right now as a way to actually get to ..play a game even if it is 'cheating' as I've heard him described. Basicly I hear the same counter argument after reading everything But people hate him because he breaks control and works with control?... If it wasn't for the overpowered control factor in the first place?

So what I am hearing is people don't like him because he beats their mechanic?...Maybe control needs to go not the wolf? Just a thought on things.

All in all it sounds like the Meta was allowed to get so out of control (with control) in the last few sets that your able to tell your opponent how the game will go so something that says no is bad?....But I want to play to.

After thinking about it we need MORE characters that break control choke holds. Maybe some symbol variation but if it's another block of control not aggro in a fighting game might need more Jt's to go from UCS back to UFS....just food for thought on that one.

Until recently, I would have agreed with you Doughnut, having had some of my best fights against a Talbain deck, and thouroughly enjoying them (hats off to Madeofwin for his awesome build) but then I looked 2 Fridays ago upon Illegal Maneuvers at the pre-release and immediately said "this will be the card that gets Talbain banned" and having seen what he's capable of using it, I'm afraid I've gotta jump on the banwagon here too. I don't like seeing any cards hit the can really, but as I said in a post on another thread, it wouldn't be as if Talbain fans are losing out too much. His promo version is still awesome, and I remember at least one of his DS01 foundations being block 3. Perhaps it is best that Talbain goes after all....

Your argument on prices is poorly chosen. There is no card existing in the game that will cost as much as one of the next-gen consoles at a full set. MAYBE at two full sets, but that'd be it. When Syndicate was still legal and foil Penny Arcade was insanely pricey, then yes, that would have been true. As it stands, not Spike, Bert, or anything else has anything near a $75 price tag (well, if I say "ohey, I'll sell you my [whatever] for $75", then yeah, it would).

As for something other than control - take a look at the new sets and try to tell me the new Chun-Li and Elena aren't aggressive characters, one of whom absolutely shatters a control deck's basis - playing foundations. That's how games work - swings in momentum. What's en vogue now will not be later, because people will be tired of playing against it. You can't complain about Chain Throw loops and Absurd Strength ending games too quickly, then complain about control decks locking you out of the game. You can't have it both ways - something will always be more dominant than the other.

Time for sleep. I have to come up with my characters for Teams and Singles for the GCC, hopefully in my sleep. Goodnight.

I don't normally ask for decklists but, no one in my area has ever played talbain. Is it possible for someone to put a list up on the deck building section so I can get a better idea of how the deck works?

TaintedDoughnut said:

Well, I usually don't run that many assets in my decks, even the hilarious ones and as far as I know most regular competitive decks don't, specially with Addes gone. I don't like to change the way I build my decks just because there's one character around, and if I am forced to do so, then I could just play the Wolf himself.

Bitter Rivals is another extremely annoying card I have complained of before, and I agree it destroys reversals (and Rejection, which is a good thing since that's another card I hate), but it is not that effective against multiples if they have already hit the card pool. Silver Spoon is an underplayed card that should deserve more attention.

However, I still don't see Talbain*** as a solution to the control problem, I rather see him as part of the problem. Give me characters than can kill this control decks before they set-up, just like Elena and Promo Yun-Seong used to do a year ago (they were somehow similar to Talbain, but had more weaknesses). But with all the negation, high vitality characters, recursion, damage reduction and life gain around, that is almost impossible now. I know turn 1-2 kills are not fun, but as I've said many times, I'd rather be killed in 2 turns and 5 minutes than being controlled for 10 turns and 45 minutes to then kill me out of boredomia.

Talbain*** changes the game mechanics in a way playing is not fun for me. I've played against him in our local tourneys, and it can reach a point where both players refuse to play foundations, waiting for the other to do so, stalling the game like crazy.

I agree more diversity is needed, but again, Talbain*** is not what I would like to see.

Assets, Foundations, and Wolfies oh my! Since I inadvertantly got dragged into this discussion I'm going to make a few comments.

To start off with I have not suggested that a solution to JT is to play assets. I said that JT could play with more assets. This is due to his ability to put foundations down whenever his opponent chooses to. This is even more true now that we have a card that allows you to use assets like foundations.

Why are assets generaly maligned? Well for the simple reason is that they can easily slow you down. Just like the 100 card deck is generaly maligned. It can slow your game down to a crawl while your opponent goes and grinds you in to the dirt. Having tons of assets hurts efficiency more than anything. Having a few can help, but only if they're the right few.

Now as far as needing the big money cards to win here's the thing... Big money cards can make a horrible player seem better than they are, but big money cards do not make players better...-at all-. Big money cards can not and do not replace replace player skill. I don't think if I gave you a playset of every big money card out there currently TD that you would be able to beat GH, Tag, Proto, Scuba, Vik, or any of the other huge name players out there. Thats not saying you're a bad player, its me saying there is a reason these guys are on top and it has a lot less to do with the cards they have than it does their skill playing the game and their skill with deck building. Just giving players who don't have a lot of money a rediculously powerful card thats inexpensive to get ahold of does not at all make that gap in skill smaller, and in fact exagerates the difference because if its in-expensive that means the higher skill players can get ahold of it to, and thus they're going to be able to abuse it even more than the much less skilled players.

Talbain doesn't scream "Hey look control take it in the face!". He screams "Hey look I can control better than you because I can control you twice as fast!". Just look at how you designed your Talbain deck. You don't do anything remotely resembling aggro. If you(TaintedDoughnut) get through a single game in 50 mins its a god **** miracle. When you get through 2 with that I start thinking the second coming is about to happen. Hell its something you practicaly take pride in.

To your comments on multiples and reversals....I'm sorry what? Yes there are ways to stop both! Theres also ways to stop throws from doing half damage if they're full blocked. This is not new. This doesn't make reversals or multiples any less powerful (no pun intended). What should happen is if you see things that can stop these out on the board you should play smarter, be more careful about what you do, and learn how to switch gears. I don't know if you've noticed but neither myself, or my brother, or most anyone else in our play group has stoped playing multiples or reversals because people can stop them. And no one in the competitive scene has stoped playing Feline Spike because you can stop reversals or multiples. Heck no ones stoped playing it even with Bitter Rivals in the card pool! Just like no ones stoped playing Chester's Backing just because Olcadan's exists.

There's a reason certain people in our playgroup win more often than others. Its not because they purchase more cards either. Its because they've taken the time to get better at the game. And the first step I'd suggest to you Tainted would be to take your Chun-Li deck and toss it on the deck building forums. I will tell you it didn't win games due to spectacular construction.

Back to Talbain...Yes yes he is overpowered. There is no answer to his ability at all. Playing assets is not a answer. Hoping he's stupid enough to block with foundations is not a answer. Hoping the player of Talbain has no clue what he's doing is not a answer either. And even if they suddently printed a answer and handed it out to every single ufs player in playsets it wouldn't make him any less over powered. He breaks the game plain and simple.

BlindProphet said:

Also dosen't help anymore I CAN'T REMEMBER combos half the time after the fateful events of september 14. I have to try to sit down and memorize everything.(try memorizing with short term memory loss and aphasia) a Character that can just run has a certain appeal to me. But I still say Talbain is nessicary in the current. If comes down to it. If the game is going to continue down a blind control path I see no reason to stick with it what so ever plain and simple. I'll go back to games that require more thought back to the table top. Not like I have anything else to do but game and it ain't getting any easier with each word I mispeak and each deadly migraine I have to sleep off.

Started UFS because I thought it was going to be a fighting game instead it turned into a mismatch of card turning slowly but surely as I've told your brother I am thinking of droping it like a bad habbit because the path the game has going. Been trying to stick in there hang with the game. BUt if it's UCS and thats what everyone will so staunchly defend to the death it will seem that maybe I should open Tainteds Discount card emporium.

Now if Other mechanics can start ya know being viable sure willing to keep at it but if it's control control control. I can play the Pooles rules the ultimate control.

if not well Flames of War, At-43, Warhammer Fantasy, and the myraid of other things I can do more time for them less time looking over cards night and day to try to stand a chance at Controling game that is suppose ot be about fighting.

UCS is not UFS