Hi everyone! Been a while since I posted on these boards, but I thought I'd stop by since I recently got back into Descent. A friend of mine who comes by regularly for board games was interested, so we started up a Sea of Blood campaign with him as the four heroes and myself as the Overlord.

Short story, we're now on the second campaign and have a number of questions. The first campaign was his first time playing Descent, and with Sea of Blood it was understandable that it ended badly for him. He had a number of good heroes, but up against Captain Bones, the Leviathan plot, and not being able to stop the Siren from destroying chains meant that the campaign ended just before Silver could hit.

Now, my friend isn't cautious, he's been frequenting the BGG forums and these ones, trying to get all the strategy advice and suggestions he could. So I don't feel like there is a problem in terms of one of us being just plain better then the other in strategy. The first game was his first, so it's kind of a fluke.

He jumped right into a second game and drew a pretty awesome team. His main tank is Lord Hawthorne, armed with Able Warrior. His ranged character is Ronan of the Wild, armed with a new silver Reaping Scythe and two skills, Dead Eye (I think that's the one that gives +2 DMG) and Cautious. Cautious was what he started the game with and has made my traps not as worthwhile, especially considering I now only get 3 threat per turn.

His main mage is probably the most annoying of the bunch, Shiver. He started the game with Mage Armor and now has 3 runes (a really awesome new silver rune weapon and two 'other' runes) giving him 3 armor. That, plus the base magic robe, means he has 5 armor vs. ranged/magic and 3 armor vs. melee. Of course, getting into melee with him hurts like hell since he has that 4 aura. If he stands in a corridor and I'm trying to move copper creatures past him, well, it's virtually impossible.

Lastly, we have his runner and secondary tank, Otaluk (sp?) and... well, whatever, the halfling on the wolf. He started the game with Tough (giving him a total of 20 life), which, coupled with his Stealth ability, means he is very hard for me to kill. He runs around with a cursed copper sword (1H, +3 dmg on 2 surges) and an off-hand weapon that gives him a bonus surge, meaning he usually does pretty good damage. He only *had* 2 armor (the past tense being important), but has reduced that to 1 since he just acquired the... Agile? (not sure if that's right) skill. It's the one that lets you move into any square for only 1 MP. This means that he could move through deep water at normal speed, and with only 1 armor now, it costs him no fatigue.

My lieutenants are a bit worried.

I'll get more into the world detail some other time, first we did have a few questions that have come up over the course of these games. I've seen a number of threads about some of these, and don't wish to start any giant discussions on them, I'm more just curious how people play them in their own games.

1. With the Shadow Queen plot, the Overlord can purchase an upgrade in Silver that seals off the Queen's city (I forget the name) and treats it as razed for getting more conquest per week. Would this also count as razed towards the victory of needing 5 cities razed?

2. This is kind of a big one, and we've tried it both ways. Apologies in advance if it's confusing to explain. When using the dungeon tiles, you'll notice that the walls extend out a bit into each square. When corners hit and you have two creatures on each side of the corner (diagonally adjacent) it would *seem* like LOS cannot be drawn between them as it hits that wall. Is the wall purely a decoration thing and you should be able to move/draw LOS between those diagonal squares, or is it definitely a block? We're currently playing it the former way, though we did play it the latter to begin with.

3. When the Overlord has sealed the Alchemist from cities, does this also prevent players from using the Merchant Boat encounter to buy potions? It says to treat as a city with an Alchemist of 3, so my initial inclination is yes, there would be no potions there since it says to treat like a city and alchemists in the city are closed.

4. I saw a giant thread about this and have read it, but still am a bit unsure on what most people go with. Large creatures and rubble tokens. We've been playing it that a large creature could move over rubble (and water) so long as they never ended their turn on it, and so long as it never took up all of their mini spaces. How do others play this?

5. If the party arrives at an island dungeon and decides to flee via the boat, what happens? In an encounter, they would continue their game week. In a normal dungeon, they would return to their home port. It makes most sense for them to continue their game week since they still have the boat, but doesn't seem to specify in the book.

There are other questions I can't think of yet, but I'll be back when I can remember them.

Oh, as for the world detail. If anyone is curious, I've been pretty judicious about tracking everything (more so in the second campaign especially). I might post a larger thread about it later, since I've been taking pictures of every dungeon/encounter and have been tracking everything in the Descent Campaign Tracker.

In Copper, he had his heroes go south to Orrik and declare it as their Home Port, working on some dungeons there. He stayed pretty close to me in conquest for the most part, his blocking with Shiver and reach with Hawthorne and other annoyances made it hard to get too many kills. He completed a rumor (for 2,000 gold) and got secret training (wounds for Shiver and Ronan, fatigue for Hawthorne and wolf/hobbit). During this time my Siren had destroyed Garnett, headed north to destroy the floating city (where you can upgrade ship for 1 CP less) and headed towards the free rumor city. He used his new Elven Sails and Compass to travel secret trails and make his way quickly up to the same free rumor city. There was a brief encounter between him and my Lt outside the city, but he escaped. Once in the city he went and did one more full dungeon to get a third map piece and the campaign progressed to silver.

He then returned to town. I didn't destroy it on the first week so he had a chance to train. He got some cool new silver weapons for his heroes (thankfully costing double because of plot), a new rumor (that got him his fourth treasure map piece right away, lucky bastard) and trained his hobbit/wolf with Agile (grrr!). He then went to the nearby treasure site and got the 2,500 GP treasure. During this time it took another couple weeks, but Siren destroyed the town and started to move to the other one nearby (with cheaper cannons). The Kraken was also summoned and headed south towards the bottom-right city.

We ended there, with him about to go into another nearby dungeon for the first Silver dungeon. At this point, I have all the Plot I could buy put into play (except the new Silver one). I have the Siren and Kraken out. I have the Mesmerism upgrade (to make sure his Orders don't get placed as often), Siege Engines, and the card that lets me remove 4 cards from my deck. I also have Gold Beasts, but Eldritch and Humanoids are still Copper.

Well that's a long enough post. Thanks for any help with the questions!

Another pair of questions I remembered:

6. When re-equipping, is it actually free to do so if the character just does it at the beginning of his turn, and only 2 MP if he does it mid-way into his turn? I had thought it always 2 MP but read this in the FAQ and am now wondering otherwise, and if that's the case for RtL/SoB.

7. Knockback says that it moves the character 'away' from the attacker, but the FAQ indicates that Knockback can be used to move them in any direction. Does this mean a Cannon with Knockback could, essentially, hit someone and *pull* them towards the ship? That would be an interesting tactic against the Siren. Get three of those long-range cannons with Knockback that can freely target creatures, shoot her, then pull her 0-9 squares towards the ship. o.O

totally screwed up reply...

Karui_Kage said:

Since the card says to put a razed token on the city, IMO that means the city counts as razed for every purpose thereafter.

Karui_Kage said:

AB
C|D
There is no restriction C-B or A-D at all. C-D has a wall in between and is definitely blocked for LOS and attacks, though technically adjacent for purposes such as Aura and Grapple and movement (There will be a FAQ clarification attempt on that last part).

Karui_Kage said:

YEs, It is treated as a city with Alchemist 3, (which is closed!) Tough luck!

Karui_Kage said:

Not allowed, quite definitely. There may be still some holdouts whose stubborness exceeds their good sense though.
FWIW, this too will be attempted to be clarified for the next FAQ.

Karui_Kage said:

1. As per the rules, as they fled from a dungeon (even though it is the top island level only) they return to their home port. It is just the flee mechanism that is different on an Island level, not the result.
2. I'm not quite sure how you can consider that it 'makes sense' for them to 'continue their game week'. Their game week continuing or ending has nothing to do with the boat and there is nothing for them to 'continue their game week' on anyway? Unless you mean Visiting their home port assuming the fled there (which they do). Nope. They fled the dungeon, their week ends.

Karui_Kage said:

The Step 2: Equip Items is and always has been 'Free'. Heroes don;t actually have any MP at that stage! This is true for all types of Descent.

Karui_Kage said:

Yes.
If you can get a cannon within arc of the Siren then the OL has probably done something wrong! Cannons only shoot out over a limited arc and the Revenge has huge dead zones that can't be targeted by cannons.

Thanks for the answers! I think I was a bit unclear with one of the questions, but I'll get to that later. I did want to address the 'fleeing an island encounter' though.

The main discrepancy seems to be what causes them to return to the home port. When the heroes teleport into a dungeon, they only have two options. Proceed forward into that green light, or exit through a rune. The runes only go to the home port. Makes sense. If they continue forward all the way to the third floor, then that green light lets them back out to the surface. Alright, makes thematical sense.

When the heroes flee from an encounter by their ship moving off the map, they may continue their game week from where they are. In that sense, they can keep moving from that spot without having to return to the home port. Makes sense, they are still on the boat after all.

An island encounter is a strange hybrid. If the party fled from it via a rune, I would totally agree, they return to their home port. That's where the runes connect after all. But if they get back in their boat and move it off the map, it seems more like an encounter then. Why do they have to teleport home? Why can't they stay where they are?

Thematically, it makes 100% sense to treat that like an encounter and allow them to start their next week at that island instead of forcing them to return home. I agree that the rules kind of side with them teleporting back, I'm just saying that, because of the weird hybrid-nature, it makes little sense.

Corbon said:

Actually, I don't remember the card saying to put a raze token on the city. I believe it says that heroes may not enter Dallak and that the Overlord gains conquest each week as if the city were razed. I don't remember interpreting it as being actually razed for # of cities destroyed for end of game. It may also state that the city is not actually razed on the card. One of many times I wish I had the actual card handy to look at.

Solairflaire said:

I had a quick peek at the card before leaving for work this morning. I am quite sure that it literally says to place a raze marker on the city. It doesn't actually say to count the city as razed for anything but gaining CT (and the buildings can't be used since entry to the heroes is barred). It also doesn't say not to count the city as razed (which is not an argument, just making the point).

I believe the city is 'closed' rather than razed in the card text, or something similar.

However it has a razed marker on it, all the buildings are closed and the OL gains CT for it. Without a differing memory state marker , what is the difference between being actually razed and being effectively razed?

My reasoning is that once the card has been played and placed in the graveyard, the only sign of what happened is a razed marker left on the city, so the city counts as razed, end of story. KISS.
I did state that this was IMO, so I don't think it is clear or explicit.

Note: My whole 'case' is based on the raze marker left on it. If I somehow managed to misread the card badly this morning and there is no raze marker, then I definitely do not think that the cit would count as razed for the 5 cities rule.

A few comments about your fleeing an island encounter.

A good thing to remember is that this is your game and you can change any rule you want for any reason.

Changing this in order for everything to make perfect sense is a good thing to do.

Even though there is nothing to support your way of playing in the rules, I would say go for it.

This would be true of any situation that arises, figure out the best possible reasoning for the given situation and have everyone agree on it.

If you did make this change, I would make it so that the heroes week does end, but they can stay in the same position.

Corbon said:

Everything else Corbon said is right, but I think he is wrong on this point. Here are the rules:

Party Flight [during an encounter]
If at any point during the encounter any part of the Revenge moves off the map, then the party escapes. The heroes receive no loot, but continue their game week action (Rulebook page 18).

Fleeing an Island
To flee an island level, the heroes must board their ship and flee the board with it, just as in an encounter . Any hero without Swim or Soar left behind when the party’s ship flees the map is instantly killed, regardless of armor or remaining wounds (Rulebook p. 21).

It doesn't say that the heroes return to their home port when fleeing an island. It doesn't say "just as in a dungeon" either, but "just as in an encounter", so you apply what happens in an encounter when the heroes flee: continue the game week (which would, actually, end with them remaining on the island location of the Torue Albes map).

Karui_Kage, your thematic way of playing is the right way.

Ispher said:

Not quite.
To flee they must do the same thing as they would in an encounter. It does not say that the results of fleeing are the same as an encounter, just the method. An island level is the first level of a dungeon. In the absence of any change in the results of fleeing, the heroes have fled from a dungeon, not an encounter.

Corbon said:

By original rules, it's definitely not allowed.

It's probably still not allowed, as that's a pretty big change to make without drawing more attention to the change. But the most recent FAQ ruling uses totally undefined language that might mean a number of different things, so nobody can really know for sure how large monsters interact with "terrain" (or even what counts as terrain) right now.

Corbon said:

This is the part we started to think about. You flee, just as in an encounter. Yes, it's the first level of a dungeon, *kind of*. It's a unique level called an "Island" level. "Dungeon" levels are very simply the usual dungeon levels, "Encounters" are encounters, "Island" levels are a strange hybrid.

Anyhow, I think we're going to keep playing at least this part the way we have, that he could start his next game week at the same island if he fled via the ship. The other answers are good to know, there are definitely a few things we've been doing wrong. The moving over rubble one is a... weird issue, to be sure.

Corbon said:

Back from holidays...

It does not say that the results of fleeing are the same than in a dungeon either.

Conceptually, I fully agree that an Island level is the first level of a dungeon. However, the rulebook always mentions "dungeon and island" when things apply to both: If the heroes end their movement in a dungeon or island area (p.14); Heroes returning to a town after exploring a dungeon or island (p. 15); the hero players may choose any unexplored dungeon or island (p.21); etc.

But in the "fleeing" part of the rules, they do NOT mention "dungeon or island", just "dungeon": If the heroes decide that things are too grim for them to continue on inside a dungeon, they can decide to leave a dungeon and not come back. To do this, they must simply all return to their Home Port at the same time (via glyphs of transport – see “Using Buildings” on page 31) and announce that they’re fleeing the dungeon. If they do this, the dungeon ends. The players must mark that dungeon location as explored on the campaign sheet (meaning that they may not re-enter it for the duration of the
campaign), and the party marker is moved to the city containing the party’s Home Port marker on the Torue Albes map (p. 21).

Later on the same page comes the "fleeing an island" part. It is never mentioned anywhere that fleeing a dungeon or fleeing an island has the same result.

Then we have a very strong situational argument: when fleeing from inside a dungeon, all heroes are in their home port's locations, so it is evident that they should be situated at their home port after fleeing. But when fleeing with a ship, they are leaving the island on the ship, so they are sailing away, resuming their journey...

It is at least "too close to call", as they say in the US during elections. The situational argument especially is strong enough that we played it Karui_Kage's way without ever thinking it could be different.