Since nearly all tanks carried smoke rounds how about a rule that would give them this ability in TOI not an official rule

Declare you are firing smoke. pick the hex you wish to lay the smoke in. roll like you are attacking versus infantry 3 success gives you smoke in one hex 5or 6 success you could pick one additional surrounding hex that can be covered as long as it's in Los.

comments or fixes welcome

BJaffe01

Sound fun. However a few comments: I geuss you can pick any hex within range and line of sight. However long range would be difficult as 6 are counted as successes. Thats ok I guess. Placing smoke within normal range would also be difficult, but doable. However may I propose a small change?

First Pick hex: if atleast one success is made, place 1 smoke marker. However if 1 success is the smoke marker scatters 2 hexes. If 2 success are made the smoke marker scatters 2 hexs, and if 3 or higher the smoke marker lands in the picked hex. (roll red (or black?) die to determine where they scatter)

However be avare that placing a smoke right infront of the tank can be quit powerfull and easy to do. This may lead to some strange situations. Another question, are you supposed to be able to fire smoke and move?

yeah i was thinking at long range smoke placement would be harder. so your idea may be better. yes smoke right in front of the tank would be powerful. i think you can fire smoke and move but maybe the restriction is firing before movement.

BJaffe01

I think maybe the tactic of firing smoke in the hex right infront of you would be somewhat strange, so maybe a minimum distance is required? Cuz, it would feel much better if you fire smoke at enemy positions and then move your troops forward, to block enemy vision, in contrast to blocking your own...

That's an interesting point but seems to conflict with the LOS rules. Smoke acts as cover and an FP modifier if a unit is in the same hex, but acts as blocking terrain otherwise. If you need to screen your units from say OP fire, then smoke would be used as blocking terrain. If you want to assault a unit or reduce it FP then smoke on target makes sense. I think.

I'd like to see more use of Smoke Screens in this game. It would really enhance the tactics. However, I'm not so sure about tanks using it Bill.

Although tanks may have carried smoke rounds, unless they were support guns their muzzle velocities tended to be too high to make the smoke effective.

Smoke really belongs to the mortars and the artillery (which is in drastic need of an overhaul for the system in my opinion). It would be better to allow each mortar unit a smoke marker or two that allows them to fire this type of ammunition in limited quantities. They would be ideal for screening.

Another factor that could come into play if you want to get authentic would be wind direction and speed. Maybe the smoke lasts X rounds. Determine wind direction and speed (keeping it as simple as possible). Mark it where it lands for the first turn (would like to see the indirect call for fire method here with a significant reduction in drift, ie. 1 or 2 hexes at most!). Then for the subsequent rounds, the smoke moves accordingly.

Lot's of potential here.

Off the top of my head...roll a d6 for wind direction and a d6 for speed (halving). These are marked on the North marker accordingly. The player would then assign a target hex based on this information. Call down the fire as per the fire procedure. The wind speed could also determine the duration of the screen, again off the top say Duration 4 minus wind speed equals how long the screen stays. For example, a 3 speed (5 or 6 rolled on the die) would mean the screen is dispersed after the first round it is used. Whereas a 1 speed means it continues moving in the direction of the wind one hex for the next 3 rounds.

Again, it could be tweaked and perhaps made more simple but it would certainly enhance the game to introduce this element. Good call!

I'm guessing smoke was left out for reasons of simplicity and speeding up game play. I use a smoke rule where mortars can fire smoke shells and it works great but it does slow down the game since you have a harder time finding targets during your limited actions. If a TOI game is allowed to run longer like many more complex game systems then things like smoke greatly improve your options. I'd also like to see some command and control rules.

well there where reasons to carry smoke rounds. and after looking further the the smoke ability for tanks may need be limited to either scenario special rules the following tanks or tank types where used to fire smoke at times Early MK IV'S which where armed with a 75 infantry gun,also early STUG III's where armed with this same gun these tanks served into 42 ,or later for some, this gun was a howitzer used to give the other tanks mobile fire support and eliminate at guns or infantry or smoke screens for manouver. the Russians used SU-76's and some 122's for this as well but mostly as mobile artillery and we had Shermans for this some of the 75's plus later 105's. the British used close support tanks with 90mm howitzers for this until early 44

so for a rule how about a minimum range of 2, and you roll for drift like artillery but with 1/2 the distance for the drift. and 2 -3 success one hex of smoke 4-5 success 2 hexes of smoke and 6 success 3 hexes of smoke that must be place around where the first round settles after drift.

let me know what you all think

BJaffe01

That looks nice and clean Bill, I'd give that a try. I like the half drift and could do without the wind speed/direction as I've indicated above if just to keep things simple and moving.

How long would the screen last for?

I assume that there would be a limit to the number of times it could be used and that needs to be tracked.

I'd still like to see Mortars use this, they are the tops at firing smoke (and illumination rounds technically, but that's another story).

Bill,

Thanks for moving this great idea forward. Smoke was an inherent part of infantry assault doctrine.

Since these are direct fire weapons I would not use the drift option and since they are usually smaller caliber guns I would stick to just the target hex without wind effects. I believe there is a definite need for smoke fired from AFV and artillery/mortors but for TOI would keep it simple. For that reason I would let it stand for one complete round from laying it on. Also, since AFVs did not carry large quantities I would give each side a specific number of smoke chits based on AVF numbers and mortor squads. Expend one chit for each use of smoke.

Cheers!

well smoke drifted some even from tank rounds that's why i inculded minimal drift. one round for less than 6 success if you succed more than 6 times 2 rounds to represent higher smoke concentrations.

i don't know enough about mortars and smoke to do a rule but if you do Brummbar go ahead and write one

BJaffe01

I enjoy the minimum distance and the scattering. Why?

1) nothing is 100% accurate,

2) it is easier to balance

3) Placing a smoke marker excatly where you want might lead to strange situations and unwanted tactics. With a small scatter I think it is better to fire at the enemy positions than firing them in strange ways as for example directly infront of your own infanteri which is far from any enemy units.

BJaffe01 said:

As far as I know, 81mm or 3 inch mortars can fire smoke, as can British light mortars.

My suggestion for Mortars Firing Smoke would be...

Players take 2 smoke markers per mortar crew.

(These would represent the total amount of smoke the player could fire for the entire game. It could either be used all at once or for separate firings, see below).

When the player fires smoke from their mortars, the procedure is similar to a call for fire for artillery. Exceptions being, no need to Establish Contact and the drift would be reduced significantly.

So...

Target Hex.

Roll for Drift - The No, Normal and Enhanced LOS stay the same in terms of numbers required but the hex drift would be more in line with 1-3 result = 1 hex drift, 4-6 result = 2 hex drift.

The player would then place at least one smoke marker on the hex hit. The player could then decide at that time to make it a deliberate smoke mission and instantly place their second smoke marker in any adjacent hex to the first smoke marker.

Smoke would be removed in the Remove Tokens Phase.

The other situation that needs to be taken into account is the double mortar crew set up. I would think that it would simply mean a bigger smoke build up if desired. So once the target hex is hit, the player can opt to still just place the one smoke marker or build it up to all four smoke markers.

I think these mortar smoke rules would be appropriate to not only how smoke worked but would also be in keeping with existing rules that players already know.

Man, how can people not see the amazing potential of this game! Easily one of the best out there imo.

I like the idea here but I have one question. Normally mortars can only fire if a friendly non-fatigued unit has LOS on the target hex. So why not just say that it needs the same requirements? That way the drift number will be 4 at the most. ie. a maximum drift of 3 hexes.

Or if it should be more accurate you could make Normal LOS have a drift number of 3 and Enhanced LOS have a drift number of 2.

Pilot17 said:

Normally mortars can only fire if a friendly non-fatigued unit has LOS on the target hex.

So why not just say that it needs the same requirements? That way the drift number will be 4 at the most. ie. a maximum drift of 3 hexes.

Or if it should be more accurate you could make Normal LOS have a drift number of 3 and Enhanced LOS have a drift number of 2.

Good points, guess I got caught up in the artillery fire procedure. To make things simple and easier to deal with, basing the procedure as much as possible with existing rules would be best so maybe a 3 drift isn't that far out in terms of re-writing things.

I would amend my suggested rules to conform to the points above.

Thanks.

some tanks carried a fair number of smoke rounds, some German tanks had as many as 20 rounds of smoke,so i see no reason to limit smoke ability in the designated tanks in a normal scenario but you can always set limits if you want the added complexity. Limiting Mortars makes more sense as they carried there own rounds.

BJaffe01