No helmet

By KommissarK, in Deathwatch House Rules

Posted at

Bilateralrope said:

The audience are the gods of Destiny, whose attention you must catch if you are to do Great Things.

In other words, your 'audience' doesn't exist. Not really a surprise when your idea made the smart meta-gaming move a dumb in-character move. Especially when faced with criticism you decided to make it an even dumber in-character move.

Sure, it is a bit meta, but I don't think anyone can deny that in 40k the more likely you are to have a name and be one of Fates Chosen Few the less likely you are to wear a helmet. So it seems obvious to me to link the mechanic that makes your character stand out from the rest to their head wear.

I'll dispute that because I haven't seen any proof that they go regularly without helmets. The models don't count because their appearance is fixed, meaning that if we take the lack of helmets from there, we also have to take other things like Brother-Sergeant Cloten mentioned. Pictures don't count because some of them have been modified for propaganda* (helmet-less marines look more heroic) and I don't know how to tell the edited ones from the accurate ones.

So that leaves the novels and flavour text from rulebooks. What do they say about Space Marines going around without helmets ?

Then we have Terminator Armour. It only gets worn by Space Marines who have proven themselves. If the Space Marines that have earned the right to wear it are meant to be going around without helmets, why does it come with a helmet ?

* Such as the covers on the Caiphas Cain books.

In other words we're only going to consider the sources that you define as worthy considering because they are custom-tailored to your point of view?

Besides I have a Terminator Captain mini who doesn't wear a helmet. You can claim that minis and pictures don't count and that it's all only propaganda but that is nothing more than a personal opinion which has no more basis than seeing it vice-versa. And your opinions don't hold more gravity outside of your own gaming rounds than anyone else's.

Alex

Posted at

KommissarK said:

I would suggest +3 cohesion for this.

Also, realize, that this is purely an option, and in its goal, its supposed to be interchangeable with, not superior to, wearing a helmet. Do you want stronger defense/survivibility, or do you want greater sense of leadership?

Steering yet again back on topic:

I would say +2 cohesion for the squad leader. If you want to have a more cinematic feel, allow an additional +1 cohesion for every squad member that also doesn't wear a helmet.

There are multiple sources that show Space Marines not wearing helmets standing right next to those that are wearing them. Frankly, I think it's just a display of leadership, a disdain for your enemy. It would be similar to carrying a swagger stick into combat. It shows that you don't consider your enemies a threat, and therefore neither should your men.

Look at Commissars in the Imperial Guard. They don't wear helmets, but instead wear steepled hats. Do they get less protection? Of course. Do they care? No, for they are superior in their beliefs that the enemy does not stand a chance. It also makes the people they are leading latch onto something else... a belief that faith and courage alone will shield them from harm.

As Lord Solar Macharius would say:

"What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!"

Not wearing that helmet = courage in the face of enemy fire. Therefore, you'll inspire others to greatness.

Posted at

On Commissars: Yes, they don't wear any helmet, but they are actually better protected than any guardsman who is wearing their helmet. They are issued with a refractor field (or at least they used to be... it is probably optional now, haven't got my Codex with me). Yes, they look fairly unprotected (aside from the fact that their greatcoat is probably made from flak, and many of the models have them wearing carapace chest plates), but the forcefield protects them, allowing them to walk around in enemy fire apparently unscathed.

In the books most characters wear their helmets, even "heroic" ones. They remove them if they are damaged, hindering their awareness (one Dark Angel's officer does it in one story because damage has led to the auto-senses shutting down), but if possible keep them on. The one exception are the Space Wolves (who in The Thousands Sons book are explicitly stated to have many members going helmetless... and suffering additional casualties because of it).

Posted at

borithan said:

On Commissars: Yes, they don't wear any helmet, but they are actually better protected than any guardsman who is wearing their helmet. They are issued with a refractor field (or at least they used to be... it is probably optional now, haven't got my Codex with me). Yes, they look fairly unprotected (aside from the fact that their greatcoat is probably made from flak, and many of the models have them wearing carapace chest plates), but the forcefield protects them, allowing them to walk around in enemy fire apparently unscathed.

In the books most characters wear their helmets, even "heroic" ones. They remove them if they are damaged, hindering their awareness (one Dark Angel's officer does it in one story because damage has led to the auto-senses shutting down), but if possible keep them on. The one exception are the Space Wolves (who in The Thousands Sons book are explicitly stated to have many members going helmetless... and suffering additional casualties because of it).

As Commissars go, yes, they can take carapace armor and refractor fields. However, they are not standard issue for them.

The Storm Coat that you are referring to that a Commissar wears is actually described in the Inquisitors Handbook (I believe it gives armor 2 to arms and chest, but that's it).

I would not give the space marines that don't wear their helmets more survivability... on the contrary, as in the Thousand Sons novel, they would be more at risk. That risk, however, would be offset somewhat by the bonus I would give them to squad cohesion.

Posted at

SpawnoChaos said:

KommissarK said:

I would suggest +3 cohesion for this.

Also, realize, that this is purely an option, and in its goal, its supposed to be interchangeable with, not superior to, wearing a helmet. Do you want stronger defense/survivibility, or do you want greater sense of leadership?

Steering yet again back on topic:

I would say +2 cohesion for the squad leader. If you want to have a more cinematic feel, allow an additional +1 cohesion for every squad member that also doesn't wear a helmet.

There are multiple sources that show Space Marines not wearing helmets standing right next to those that are wearing them. Frankly, I think it's just a display of leadership, a disdain for your enemy. It would be similar to carrying a swagger stick into combat. It shows that you don't consider your enemies a threat, and therefore neither should your men.

Look at Commissars in the Imperial Guard. They don't wear helmets, but instead wear steepled hats. Do they get less protection? Of course. Do they care? No, for they are superior in their beliefs that the enemy does not stand a chance. It also makes the people they are leading latch onto something else... a belief that faith and courage alone will shield them from harm.

As Lord Solar Macharius would say:

"What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!"

Not wearing that helmet = courage in the face of enemy fire. Therefore, you'll inspire others to greatness.

Well, the Commissar also leads Guardsmen, not Space Marines, with Nerves of Steel and Know No Fear. I'm not convinced that Space Marines need much convincing of a threat.

To put what I said a different way, most posters (even those who favor Helmetless Marines) don't feel that Helmetless Marines would be in any way prevented from putting their helmet ON in appropriate situations (hard vacuum, poisonous atmosphere, enemy snipers). Given that they can choose to make use of the benefits of their helmet whenever they want, why should the rules provide them with a hard and fast benefit for being Helmetless?

I'm all for Roleplaying affecting Rolling. If the Marine takes off his helmet and delivers an inspiring speech, give him a bonus to the roll. If he takes off his helmet and meets the enemy commander eye to eye, give him a bonus to Intimidation (or Charm, or whatever). If he takes off his helmet and faces down the Broodlord, give him a Renown bonus.

I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be a single, unifying reason for why a Marine should remove his helmet. Sometimes it is necessary (helmet damage), sometimes it is to obtain an existing benefit (Space Wolf senses and tracking). Sometimes it is for purely role-playing reasons (The Iron Snake takes a drink of Ithacan water). Other times it is for roleplaying reasons that have an in-game effect (the Space Wolf spits on the Red Corsair. Having some "rule" about the benefit of removing your helmet just seems to make it more artificial.

Let's say the Space Wolf is about to duel a Red Corsair, in the midst of the traitor horde. He might remove his helmet and spit on the armor of the Red Corsair. He's out of Squad Mode range, and he wants to use Feat of Strength anyway, to try to lop the head right off the Corsair with his first strike. What good does a bonus to Cohesion do him? On the other hand, I'd be very inclined to give him a bonus to his Intimidation roll, and a good success on that roll could severely hinder the ability of the Red Corsair to parry or dodge that crucial first blow. Heck, taking off your helmet and dismissing your foe might even count as good roleplaying for triggering the Space Wolf Demeanor, so he could get +20% to the Intimidation roll (or an extra 2 degrees of success).

Let's take a Stoic Dark Angel Devastator who has just been struck in the head with a good attack. He's taken 10 or 15 wounds. He removes his cracked helmet, gazes at the shattered faceplate, and flicks the blood from his eyes. "You will have to do more than that to avert your punishment, heretic," he vows. Wouldn't it be much more true to the game to allow that to count as Triggering his Stoic Demeanor to regain 2d10 wounds than giving him +2 Cohesion?

I just don't think the Helmetless condition needs some automatic status boost, even for squad leaders. I think it feels fake. That's not to say that taking your helmet off isn't cool, and that the GM can't reward good roleplaying. I just don't see one specific benefit you should hand out when you take your hat off.

Posted at

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

SpawnoChaos said:

KommissarK said:

I would suggest +3 cohesion for this.

Also, realize, that this is purely an option, and in its goal, its supposed to be interchangeable with, not superior to, wearing a helmet. Do you want stronger defense/survivibility, or do you want greater sense of leadership?

Steering yet again back on topic:

I would say +2 cohesion for the squad leader. If you want to have a more cinematic feel, allow an additional +1 cohesion for every squad member that also doesn't wear a helmet.

There are multiple sources that show Space Marines not wearing helmets standing right next to those that are wearing them. Frankly, I think it's just a display of leadership, a disdain for your enemy. It would be similar to carrying a swagger stick into combat. It shows that you don't consider your enemies a threat, and therefore neither should your men.

Look at Commissars in the Imperial Guard. They don't wear helmets, but instead wear steepled hats. Do they get less protection? Of course. Do they care? No, for they are superior in their beliefs that the enemy does not stand a chance. It also makes the people they are leading latch onto something else... a belief that faith and courage alone will shield them from harm.

As Lord Solar Macharius would say:

"What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!"

Not wearing that helmet = courage in the face of enemy fire. Therefore, you'll inspire others to greatness.

Well, the Commissar also leads Guardsmen, not Space Marines, with Nerves of Steel and Know No Fear. I'm not convinced that Space Marines need much convincing of a threat.

To put what I said a different way, most posters (even those who favor Helmetless Marines) don't feel that Helmetless Marines would be in any way prevented from putting their helmet ON in appropriate situations (hard vacuum, poisonous atmosphere, enemy snipers). Given that they can choose to make use of the benefits of their helmet whenever they want, why should the rules provide them with a hard and fast benefit for being Helmetless?

I'm all for Roleplaying affecting Rolling. If the Marine takes off his helmet and delivers an inspiring speech, give him a bonus to the roll. If he takes off his helmet and meets the enemy commander eye to eye, give him a bonus to Intimidation (or Charm, or whatever). If he takes off his helmet and faces down the Broodlord, give him a Renown bonus.

I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be a single, unifying reason for why a Marine should remove his helmet. Sometimes it is necessary (helmet damage), sometimes it is to obtain an existing benefit (Space Wolf senses and tracking). Sometimes it is for purely role-playing reasons (The Iron Snake takes a drink of Ithacan water). Other times it is for roleplaying reasons that have an in-game effect (the Space Wolf spits on the Red Corsair. Having some "rule" about the benefit of removing your helmet just seems to make it more artificial.

Let's say the Space Wolf is about to duel a Red Corsair, in the midst of the traitor horde. He might remove his helmet and spit on the armor of the Red Corsair. He's out of Squad Mode range, and he wants to use Feat of Strength anyway, to try to lop the head right off the Corsair with his first strike. What good does a bonus to Cohesion do him? On the other hand, I'd be very inclined to give him a bonus to his Intimidation roll, and a good success on that roll could severely hinder the ability of the Red Corsair to parry or dodge that crucial first blow. Heck, taking off your helmet and dismissing your foe might even count as good roleplaying for triggering the Space Wolf Demeanor, so he could get +20% to the Intimidation roll (or an extra 2 degrees of success).

Let's take a Stoic Dark Angel Devastator who has just been struck in the head with a good attack. He's taken 10 or 15 wounds. He removes his cracked helmet, gazes at the shattered faceplate, and flicks the blood from his eyes. "You will have to do more than that to avert your punishment, heretic," he vows. Wouldn't it be much more true to the game to allow that to count as Triggering his Stoic Demeanor to regain 2d10 wounds than giving him +2 Cohesion?

I just don't think the Helmetless condition needs some automatic status boost, even for squad leaders. I think it feels fake. That's not to say that taking your helmet off isn't cool, and that the GM can't reward good roleplaying. I just don't see one specific benefit you should hand out when you take your hat off.

You might be onto something. I kinda like the direction that you're taking with this (being a Role-player myself and not much of a roll-player).

Posted at

SpawnoChaos said:

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

SpawnoChaos said:

KommissarK said:

I would suggest +3 cohesion for this.

Also, realize, that this is purely an option, and in its goal, its supposed to be interchangeable with, not superior to, wearing a helmet. Do you want stronger defense/survivibility, or do you want greater sense of leadership?

Steering yet again back on topic:

I would say +2 cohesion for the squad leader. If you want to have a more cinematic feel, allow an additional +1 cohesion for every squad member that also doesn't wear a helmet.

There are multiple sources that show Space Marines not wearing helmets standing right next to those that are wearing them. Frankly, I think it's just a display of leadership, a disdain for your enemy. It would be similar to carrying a swagger stick into combat. It shows that you don't consider your enemies a threat, and therefore neither should your men.

Look at Commissars in the Imperial Guard. They don't wear helmets, but instead wear steepled hats. Do they get less protection? Of course. Do they care? No, for they are superior in their beliefs that the enemy does not stand a chance. It also makes the people they are leading latch onto something else... a belief that faith and courage alone will shield them from harm.

As Lord Solar Macharius would say:

"What is the strongest weapon of mankind? The god-machines of the Adeptus Mechanicus? No! The Astartes Legions? No! The tank? The lasgun? The fist? Not at all! Courage and courage alone stands above them all!"

Not wearing that helmet = courage in the face of enemy fire. Therefore, you'll inspire others to greatness.

Well, the Commissar also leads Guardsmen, not Space Marines, with Nerves of Steel and Know No Fear. I'm not convinced that Space Marines need much convincing of a threat.

To put what I said a different way, most posters (even those who favor Helmetless Marines) don't feel that Helmetless Marines would be in any way prevented from putting their helmet ON in appropriate situations (hard vacuum, poisonous atmosphere, enemy snipers). Given that they can choose to make use of the benefits of their helmet whenever they want, why should the rules provide them with a hard and fast benefit for being Helmetless?

I'm all for Roleplaying affecting Rolling. If the Marine takes off his helmet and delivers an inspiring speech, give him a bonus to the roll. If he takes off his helmet and meets the enemy commander eye to eye, give him a bonus to Intimidation (or Charm, or whatever). If he takes off his helmet and faces down the Broodlord, give him a Renown bonus.

I'm just saying that there doesn't seem to be a single, unifying reason for why a Marine should remove his helmet. Sometimes it is necessary (helmet damage), sometimes it is to obtain an existing benefit (Space Wolf senses and tracking). Sometimes it is for purely role-playing reasons (The Iron Snake takes a drink of Ithacan water). Other times it is for roleplaying reasons that have an in-game effect (the Space Wolf spits on the Red Corsair. Having some "rule" about the benefit of removing your helmet just seems to make it more artificial.

Let's say the Space Wolf is about to duel a Red Corsair, in the midst of the traitor horde. He might remove his helmet and spit on the armor of the Red Corsair. He's out of Squad Mode range, and he wants to use Feat of Strength anyway, to try to lop the head right off the Corsair with his first strike. What good does a bonus to Cohesion do him? On the other hand, I'd be very inclined to give him a bonus to his Intimidation roll, and a good success on that roll could severely hinder the ability of the Red Corsair to parry or dodge that crucial first blow. Heck, taking off your helmet and dismissing your foe might even count as good roleplaying for triggering the Space Wolf Demeanor, so he could get +20% to the Intimidation roll (or an extra 2 degrees of success).

Let's take a Stoic Dark Angel Devastator who has just been struck in the head with a good attack. He's taken 10 or 15 wounds. He removes his cracked helmet, gazes at the shattered faceplate, and flicks the blood from his eyes. "You will have to do more than that to avert your punishment, heretic," he vows. Wouldn't it be much more true to the game to allow that to count as Triggering his Stoic Demeanor to regain 2d10 wounds than giving him +2 Cohesion?

I just don't think the Helmetless condition needs some automatic status boost, even for squad leaders. I think it feels fake. That's not to say that taking your helmet off isn't cool, and that the GM can't reward good roleplaying. I just don't see one specific benefit you should hand out when you take your hat off.

You might be onto something. I kinda like the direction that you're taking with this (being a Role-player myself and not much of a roll-player).

Yep, that's a good thought. I want to maintain two points though: I still stick to the thought of giving a helmetless player a temporary karma point in order to increase survivability. And maybe this also shouldn't be a hard and fast rule but at GM's discretion.

And the good thing about the renown bonus is that it comes after the fact . That is at the end of the mission you take into account how much risk the brother did take and give extra renown according to it. Plus you have to callibrate it so that not every battle-brother opts to take off the helmet only those who want to ascend fast and don't mind dying early.

Alex

Posted at

ak-73 said:

Yep, that's a good thought. I want to maintain two points though: I still stick to the thought of giving a helmetless player a temporary karma point in order to increase survivability. And maybe this also shouldn't be a hard and fast rule but at GM's discretion.

And the good thing about the renown bonus is that it comes after the fact . That is at the end of the mission you take into account how much risk the brother did take and give extra renown according to it. Plus you have to callibrate it so that not every battle-brother opts to take off the helmet only those who want to ascend fast and don't mind dying early.

Alex

Well, remember that every marine has some Karma points anyway (those Fate and Demeanor uses). The helmetless Marine just uses them to regain 1d10 wounds when he's shot in the face! gui%C3%B1o.gif

And THEN the squad gets back a point of Cohesion! Everybody wins! gran_risa.gif

On a serious note, GM's discretion is exactly what I would agree with you on this. There are lots of situations where a good roleplayer could come up with a good, fun, dramatic reason for removing their Helmet.

A hard and fast rule would encourage silly metagaming, like "The frag missile just dropped our Cohesion, and I want to activate Dig In as a Squad Mode ability. I will take off my helmet, so I can afford to do it.". If you are taking explosive fire, and you want your troops to make better use of cover, taking off your head protection isn't the best way to encourage it.

Posted at

SpawnoChaos said:

The Storm Coat that you are referring to that a Commissar wears is actually described in the Inquisitors Handbook (I believe it gives armor 2 to arms and chest, but that's it).

Inquisitor's Handbook ; page 181 - Flak Greatcoat :

  • AP 4 (Flak); Arms, Body .
  • " Stylish as well as functional, they are also favourites of civilian fighters as well. "

The silly thing, IMHO, is that the Greatcoat; which is longer then a regular coat, does not protect the legs at all. Unlike the Light and regular Flak Coats which are Arms, Body, Legs for coverage. Just a thought.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Posted at

I think the errata may have changed that so that it indeed does provide protection on the legs.

Posted at

Also remember, without a helmet the Space Marines loose the Dark Sight trait, unless they are Space Wolves.

Posted at

Also, just because the model doesn't have a helmet doesn't mean much either way. If that is the reason for saying I'm going helmetless, then some chapter masters in the game carry their helmet in their hand the entire battle. Some models are posed with their helmet in hand.

So, yeah just give a bonus for good roleplaying, whether or not they take their helmet off for it, I can agree to that.

Posted at

Well those are power helmets with which they crush the enemies of the Emporer. They are chapter masters after all. :)

Posted at

Didn't see the movie yet but looking at the Ultramarines Trailer I would say that fighting without helmet isn't the norm but it is an option.

And sometimes it seems that there is a SM culture of "the higher in rank, the less likely to wear a helmet".

Alex

Posted at

Well... marines are immortal... so I guess they're just doing it to give the newer recruits SOME hope of promotion via dead man's boots...

Posted at

Space Marines are not immortal. They are long lived, at least 400 years, but most Space Marines who survive to that age have left active service (as they get less physically able as they age past a certain point, just like normal people), and even those that survive that far have all died (due to natural causes) by the time they reach 1000. There is an exception to this: the Blood Angels and their successors who live longer, but even the oldest of them is "only" 1,100 years (though still in active service).

Posted at

borithan said:

Space Marines are not immortal. They are long lived, at least 400 years, but most Space Marines who survive to that age have left active service (as they get less physically able as they age past a certain point, just like normal people), and even those that survive that far have all died (due to natural causes) by the time they reach 1000. There is an exception to this: the Blood Angels and their successors who live longer, but even the oldest of them is "only" 1,100 years (though still in active service).

Almost correct. Chapter master Dante has been leading his chapter as Chapter master for 1,100 years. I don't belive he was promoted to Chapter master rigt away, so he's bound to be older. Probably much older.

Ther are no official sources however that states just how old he is.

Posted at

borithan said:

Space Marines are not immortal.

I know.

It was a joke, dude. /sigh.

Posted at

N0-1_H3r3 said:

ak-73 said:

And marines without a helmet usually wear a microbead, I guess

I made the assumption that the Space Wolf Rune Priest in my group - who I knew would take his helm off the moment the team landed - had a microbead in his gorget for such an eventuality, given the Space Wolves' inclination towards hatlessness. Other marines don't necessarily have that luxury, but I imagine it's a long-standing variation in the power armour of Space Wolves.

My belief is that a Space Marine in armor (with or without helmet) can access his microbead. There is a minor implant in the throat that works similar to the helmet throat-flexing system and there is a receiver in their ear. Anyone ever noticed how some of the models do have bionics stretching up to their ears?