Now, I do not wish to detract from the wonderful job the FFG team did in representing our favorite quasi-religious space warriors in an rpg, but, somethings seem to missing. A reminder, these are just my opinions, albeit exceptionally well reasoned. Here are some additional skills/talents that I'm going to have my Deathwatch players start with:

Pilot (Personal)

All Adeptus Astartes seconded to the Deathwatch start with this skill, as, in my most thoughtful and considered opinion, no chapter would send any marine with less experience than that of a tactical marine. Given that a tactical marine must, by definition, have progressed through a tour as an assault marine, it just makes sense that every Deathwatch marine would have this skill. Weird outliers such as Space Wolves, who do not follow the Codex Astartes, I summarily dismiss. Maybe they had to wrangle a squad of Sky Claws once, who knows?

Chem-Geld

I know this has been brought up before, and I'm in the camp that says the Adeptus Astartes, thanks to their extensive hypno-indoctrination, simply do not think about or even care about anything as filthy and debased as physical reproduction. Now, I can't point to any specifics here, but I'm fairly certain an Astartes does not even possess external genitalia anymore, thanks in part to the Black Carapace. I mean, for a warrior, that's just a huge weakness right there.

Piloting (personal): Just remember that not all assault troops use jump packs. Infact, most of them ride into combat in drop-pods and rhinos like everyone else.

Chem Geld: Lets not even go there. Chem Geld does not depict SM because it makes you less susceptible to Charm rolls (and thus, by extension, any attempt to lead or raise their morale like Ultramarine chapter specific abilities) and it makes them impossible to seduce (which, according to fluff, just isn't true). You can always rule they got black carapace down there and be done with it.

one more

Exotic Weapon (Astartes sniper rifle): Apart from dirty Wolves they've all been Scouts and have been trained in shotgun, boltgun and sniper rifle during that time.

How about Dodge, they've survived God Emperor knows what and they don't even start out with the dodge skill?

Polaria said:

Hmm no. Codex Assault Marines are all trained and equipped with jet packs, they might leave it behind or in during the game and turn in troops. Only Vanguard Veteran start without and you have to buy it for 10 points per character.

Santiago said:

They do, actually; it's just not represented correctly on the character sheet.

I would make medicae available at rank 1 for 800xp. It strikes me as very odd that is a rank 8 skill. What happens when the party doesn't have an apothecary?

I think we are better off just not thinking about Chem-Geld. The thing is though with the Personal pilot thing, all would be a tactical marine then depending if they are better suited to close combat they become jump equipped assault Marines, Now sometimes I will admit sometimes a scout going onto full battle brother level will be put immediately into assault Marine.

In regards to learning the sniper talent Space Wolves and Black Templars would not recieve this training for sure. There are Space Wolf Scouts though but they would be ones who stay as scouts and would play as scouts. Black Templars have the Neophyte and Initiate system, Black Templar Initiates can not take sniper weapons as they are in the thick of combat, I believe all they can take are Bolters, Combat Shotguns, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat weapon. I personally think that only the best scouts would become snipers so yeah I can totally see why they would need to train later.

I think I can understand why Medicae is set later, as the general idea of combat for space marines is a short hard battle so they should be in and out very quickly that means they should be heading away from combat to where they can be seen to medically. In game when you think about it how long should the killteam be from a medical facility either from a space marine piloted ship or general imperial guard. I think it is okay to be honest

Pilot (Personal)

The compromise with Pilot (Personal) would be to make it a Basic skill for Adeptus Astartes. This could represent that while they have been trained in the use of Jump Packs; they did not necessarily master them or have been away from the Assault Company long enough that their skills have gotten rusty. Since only the best or most inclined Assault Marines are kept in the squad, this would help to delineate that amongst the characters. It also helps to keep the Assault Marine balanced as a Specialty.

Exotic Weapon (Astartes Sniper Rifle)

I'm on the fence with this one. Not all scouts use sniper rifles, and the standard issue would be a bolter. However, I could easily see training in shotguns, bolters, sniper rifles, heavy bolters, missile launchers, combat knifes, chainswords, and grenades being part of a scout's basic regimen. Also, it does seem an odd choice to make this an Exotic Weapon. I'll probably just add this as an addition to the Astartes Weapon Training talent and call it a day.

My group has a player that wanted to be the Deathwatch "Scout" for the party, so he took Scout Armor and wanted a sniper rifle.

I looked in the book and saw that the Exotic Sniper Rifle was in fact a needle rifle. Odd, I thought. You would think that a needle rifle wouldn't be the "standard" sniper rifle for the Scouts of the Astartes.

Instead, I told him to take the Stalker Boltgun with Stalker rounds. I reasoned that the Stalker boltgun is probably shaped and looks just like a sniper rifle, except it fires bolts. I'd imagine that the Needle rifle is more for "solo" sniper missions where you are expected to sneak into an enemy base, and take out a squishy target that isn't ready for battle. Otherwise, you'll never penetrate their armor with this gun.

Therefore, I'm convinced that most Space Marine scouts have Stalker boltguns (sniper rifles) with Stalker ammo.

I looked in the book and saw that the Exotic Sniper Rifle was in fact a needle rifle. Odd, I thought. You would think that a needle rifle wouldn't be the "standard" sniper rifle for the Scouts of the Astartes.

Instead, I told him to take the Stalker Boltgun with Stalker rounds. I reasoned that the Stalker boltgun is probably shaped and looks just like a sniper rifle, except it fires bolts. I'd imagine that the Needle rifle is more for "solo" sniper missions where you are expected to sneak into an enemy base, and take out a squishy target that isn't ready for battle. Otherwise, you'll never penetrate their armor with this gun.

Therefore, I'm convinced that most Space Marine scouts have Stalker boltguns (sniper rifles) with Stalker ammo.

Um... firstly, I believe the scout sniper rifle is indeed a needle rifle. Secondly, yes, those needle rifles will be enough against most mortal enemies - if there's something I can't wound with 1d10+2d10 Accurate + 1d10 Toxic + Felling, I'm not too sure I'll fare much better with the Stalker.

Polaria said:

Is this not an issue with the problem about just what a "Veteran" is and how it relates to the Specialties? Regardless of the conceit (read: cool background concept) that you've got for you Marine that allows them to be whatever Specialty that you want, according to the background surely both a Devastator and a Tactical Marine should have all the "abilities" of an Assault Marine? A Tactical Marine all the abilities of a Devastator Marine?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

The difference is they are ALL trained to shot, no difference here from one another BUT we know Astartes join a Devastator Company (codex vise 9th Company) then an Assault Company (8th Company) then a Tactical Company (7th or 6th Company) after their service in the Scout Company (10th Company). They are Space Marines, they don't joke around about training... after you spend ever few months (if not years) in an assault compay you HAVE to have learned how to use a jumppack, you are just dead otherwise.

As for the sniper rifle, while is true not all scout are snipers they are all trained for the use of the rifle, some are better then others (and join the Tac l8r on =P) but the Scout Company is where you learn how to use guns.. ALL of them. Just move the **** rifle in the Astartes Waepon Training are you are set. Exotic or not, they are trained for it.

Cifer said:

Yes, it would appear that the "normal" sniper rifle for not just the Astartes, but the whole Imperium, IS this same needle rifle. However, the rules for this needle rifle are sadly much more impressive on the TT version, allowing for AP2 on a roll of 6 to wound.

This rifle, as presented, has NO armor penetration ability... which is what I found as being odd... given that a sniper rifle typically carries a high caliber round that is capable of penetrating most infantry based armor.

The reason that the Stalker looks better in comparison is mostly due to the penetration that the weapon gets... now, if you just give this sniper rifle a penetration based off of how well your shot was (say, -1 AP for every degree of success on the shot) THEN I would be ok with it.

I would also like to point out that according to the codices that I've read, even the **** ratling snipers of the IG are trained to use this weapon... so why would a veteran space marine NOT have this trained?

Lucius Valerius said:

Ah, my mistake. I got the order of training about-face because it's kind of crazy from the first place. Even with that admission, you might want to read the post again. I seem to be agreeing with you (a Tactical Marine should have the experience of an Assault and Devastator Marine) but just pointing out that it doesn't necessary work with the conceit of the Deathwatch system.

(My own solution was not to bother with the silly scaling thing, but to offer each of the tactical options as an option that you could "buy into" if you wanted.)

Kage

Kage2020 said:

In Deathwatch Assault and Dev Marines are former Tactical Marines, btw. (So they all should all have all the skills.) Given freedom of choice in the Deathwatch, they can resume to taking on an Assault or Dev role again. Which is the exact reason why Scouts are va iable specialty for Deathwatch.

Alex

SpawnoChaos said:

In game terms, it does have the ability to increase its damage to overcome most armour, though - an Astartes Needle Rifle can still deal 3d10 damage with a well-placed shot (as an Accurate Basic Weapon), dealing an average of 16.5 damage, which is enough to overcome the armour and reduced toughness bonus (reduced due to Felling) of a starting Marine without much difficulty (that average shot, to the AP10 body, deals 2-3 damage, enough for a 10-15 point penalty on the Toughness Test to resist the extra 1d10 damage from the Toxic quality as well). AP2 on a 6 to wound is more a reflection of accuracy (picking out weak/vulnerable spots in the armour) than it is penetrative power, and that's what the Accurate quality represents on basic weapons - dealing more damage (and thus overcoming toughness and armour more easily) with a well-placed shot.

Needle rifles have never fired high-calibre ammunition, but have long been a common sniper's weapon in 40k (though the Long-las is now providing competition; all sniper rifles do the same basic thing in the tabletop game, so there are no mechanical distinctions between them there). Quite the opposite - they use a laser-impelled crystalline micro-dart made of/impregnated with toxins to deal damage, rather than a large bullet.

For Pilot, I would make the entire range a basic skill for starting marines; marines are the ones taking control of starships, flying thunderhawks, and all that sort of stuff. I would also expand drive to cover land speeders too. Of course that is me. Yes it may seem as the starting SM would get too many skills, but they are supposed to be skilled, mad skilled.

E

That's exactly a concern some other have expressed a while ago about how playing an astartes feels. For how powerful they are in combat from the getgo they feels more newly made Battle Brothers then hardened veterans like they should be.

KommissarK said:

**** gets real.

My proposed house rule is increased damage for plasma guns/pistols and melta guns, thinking 2d10+8. As they stand now it's just wrong >

Cifer you can also take the NOMAD from Dark Heresy with Man Stopper bullets, It's an accurate long range sniper rifle.

Being an Assault Marine doesn't necessarily mean wearing a jump pack. Basically, specialist assault marines are generally the ones who get the jump pack training, the ones who are just passing through assault to tactical are usually on foot or bikes. Pilot (personal) could be on the general space marine advances chart at a lower rank than its current 3, but I don't see it being automatic.

The needle rifle has always been the SM sniper rifle, but the Stalker is gaining prominence. The needle rifle could use a little more penetration, but its stats look weaker than they are, it's pretty nasty.

No Chem Geld. Some Chapters' geneseed has... issues that might make it appropriate, but not all.

With this discussion in mind, what about characters paying requisition for skills for certain missions?

If there's sufficient autohypnosis out there, couldn't the watch captain slap a marine in the skinner box for an hour or so and pull them out with a skill in their heads?

Say, find the skill in the following order: is it your specialty? Is it Codex? Is it Deathwatch? Stop when you find the first instance. Divide xp cost by 100. Result is requisition required to have the skill slammed into your brain the crude way for the duration of a mission.

Adamant said:

That's not true. Being an Assault Marine IS all about wearing a jump pack, so much the codex says they CAN remove it. Vanguard Veterans on the other hand need to buy the jet packs.

Assault is one of the steps you take in your training as an astartes before been shipped to Combat Company from the Reserve Company where you learn the trades of the various roles within the chapter. AFTER this rotation you are permanently assigned as eighter Assault, Tactical or Devastator.

Hmm, so nobody liked the chem geld, eh? I guess the general notion must be that to be a big **** hero you've got to have big brass ones. For me, it comes down to that whole medieval monk/knight of the round table thing they've got going on, vows of chastity and all that.

Which isn't what Chem Geld represents. Chem Geld is them actually being chemically or physically castrated, or being psycho-indoctrinated in such a way as to remove those impulses.

In my game, Space Marines don't have that equipment anymore, or if it is there it's practically useless due to the fact the genetic augmentations make them infertile, but they have more than enough testosterone, and other sex hormones, being pumped out by other organs that they are still affected by Charm just as much as a normal person would be. They just don't want, don't care, just just plain can't have sex.