The rules say that after making a melee attack one can move at half-movement rate when making a succsessfull acrobatics-test.

I have two questions about this:

1. Can i first make a charge and use assassin strike in the same round? Which would mean: move a distance, attack, and again move.

2. What if my acrobatics test fails? do I still move from the opponent, but he gets the customary free attack? Or do i just stay in close combat? Or can I choose between the two possibilities? When I test acrobatics do disengage and fail, the rules say i have to move and the opponent can attack freely. So I would say with asassin strike it should work like this too, but i`m not shure about it.

1) I don't see anything that would disallow it.

2) If the acrobatics test fails you don't get to move as a free action. As you are not leaving combat there will be no free attacks against you. When using acrobatics to disengage a failed test just means that you will disengage normally (a full action) instead of reducing it to a half action. Tumbling Evasion [iH p. 225] is a bit strange in that over the Acrobatics skill detailed in DH and RT it offers no benefit to what was already present but allows opponents to make a free attack with a bonus if the test is failed.

1.) yea, looks like it should work. Technically, you could use "Lightning Attack" and "Assasin Strike" to move 3 times in a round (what im not sure of is if you must "engage" a new opponent everytime or is attacking the same guy viewed as "re-engaging".

2.) The expanded rules for Acrobatics in IH says that "Tumbling Evasion" lets you disengage as a half-action (with no attack against you) if succeful in your acrobatics test. However, if you fail, you still get to make your half-move, but the opponent gets his attack too.

Thanx so far.

1. so charge and assassin strike seems no problem. i thought so, just wanted to be sure. in case of lightning attack i don`t think it should work that way. if DH was a computer game i`d say this sounds like "bugusing".

my proposal: Lightning attack takes a full action and to use assassin strike you have to interrupt this action. so one can do this anytime during or after lighning attack, but looses the attacks remaining.

2. my mistake. i mixed the expanded rules with the one in the basic rule book. i just use the basic rules and it`s fine.

arkenfels said:

On the other hand it rewards players for mixing talents. Lightning attack and assassins strike isn't really that overpowered (you still have to pass an Acrobatics test for each free move you wish to make) and it fits the whirling blade(s) of death theme quite well.

(you still have to pass an Acrobatics test for each free move you wish to make)

. ..mhhh, youre right. i keep forgettimg this.

and its true. the description says something about an "butchering ballerina dancing through dead corpses", or something thelike. this seems perfectly fitting for a mixture of lightning attack and assassin strike.

arkenfels said:

Except... that would allow you alot of free movement between multiple attacks. While it fits thematically, it's the only talent in the book that would allow such a thing, and it would also make the talent in Ascension that allows some movement between attacks redundant.

So after letting my Assassin get away with it a few times I asked the questions on these boards and got the consenus that such a use of the talent is probably not intended. Even without it it's a good talent, anything that allows free movement is, and the no opportunuty attack is a bonus.

".....it's the only talent in the book that would allow such a thing... "

sorry, but for me thats not an argument against it. there are other examples where talents allow special abilities.

"...and it would also make the talent in Ascension that allows some movement between attacks redundant."

which ascension talent do you mean? in the case of paragon talents they are always redundant. they just mix and add the effects of the talents they replace. or in other words: if you have all the talents that are replaced by the paragon talent, you in fact already have the paragon talent.

arkenfels said:

That's not true of all paragon talents, just most - The beserker paragon talents grants different frenzied benefits than the regular beserker talent, and the TWFing paragon talents grants additional benefits beyond the sum of its parts.

Ok, agreed there are exceptions. But these are not relevant for the discussed question and I don`t know of any who are. But I`m not an expert with ascension so if somebody knows more....

The paragon talent being referred to is Blade Dancer, and while aspects of it ARE different from the sum of its talents (the extra parry from Wall of Steel only works with swords or knives, the counter-attack is at only a -10 penalty), the aspect in question (the benefits of Assassin's Strike) are unchanged.

So your point was valid, I was just trying to fill in the ancillary details. No offense meant.

Unusualsuspect said:

I'm pretty sure that there is a talent that specifically allows movement between attacks in Ascension, but I don't have the book in front of me atm so I will check later.

In any case, allowing someone to use Assassin's strike 3 times in a round means he would be able to move 3 times his rate, which is more than what he could if he just moved. That's just silly. And in total that would more than double his movement rate, so it is pretty clear it's not what's intended. It's up to the GM how many free actions one could take in a turn though, so it is well within RAW to deny more than one AS per turn.

Even as with this interpretation you can charge someone, take him down in an attack, then use AS to get into position with another enemy so you can full attack next round. That's pretty good right there.

Friend of the Dork said:

Don`t forget: first you have to pass 3 succsessful acrobatics tests. in most cases the character will fail one test or the other. and assassin strike lets you move half movement after the melee attack. so three times half movement is exactly the distance you also could move with a charge. with sprint/run you could move even further. summary: even in the ,more or less rare, case that you pass all 3 acrobatics test your movement rate is absolutely reasonable.

arkenfels said:

SO you could charge the enemy, attack 3 times, while bouncing between opponents, and move just as fast as if you had run as fast as possible and hit one guy .. I'm not sure what's reasonable about it. Then again movement in this game is wonky, especially with high agility and the Sprint Talent.

Maybe it's not that bad since you need to be adjascent to an enemy to get the 3 attacks and 3 half-moves. Anyway, will have to check the books later, but if you do some searching there is an older thread of the subject.

Friend of the Dork said:

Clearly no. A Charge is a full action. So you can charge, test acrobatics and make a half move. Over.

And combination with sprint and Assassin Strike is not possible, because you can`t Sprint and make an attack in the same round.

Your point is assassin strike should not work with multiple attacks because it gives you unrealistic movement options, right?

The maximum distance you can (theoretically) move with Assassin Strike is 4 times half Movement: You need: Lighning Attack, 2W-Wielder Melee, of course Assassin Strike & Acrobatics and a melee weapon in each hand. You then have to be adjactent to your first enemy at the start of the round. Then you start with the first attack, test acrobatics, make a half move and so on. Remember you have 4 attacks with the combination above. So: Even if you have all the skills, the equipment and the luck to succsessfully pass 4 acrobatics test in a row (not forgettimg the 4 enemies that stand in exactly the correct distance so you can fullfil your have move between the attacks) you still move no further than the maximum movement given by the rules. And I`m talking of the possible maximum movement without any skills or specials (like sprint or unnatural speed) . So, even under the most special circumstances and very, very good luck with the dices you get a normal movement. I really can`t see the point why this should be unrealisitc.

(Thanx for the tip with the old thread. I tried the search and will try again. Could you please link the older thread?)

OK disregard the charge+full attack or sprint... I'lI blame lack of sleep

OK, I found the thread. It's called Assassins Strike and Reaping, or some such. Search for Assassins Strike in title of the posts.

There were basically two main takes on it:

#1. In order to use Assassins Strike you must "engage your opponent AND make a melee attack", interpreted as "move close to the enemy." Thus charge+AS works fine, move +AS works fine, Lightening attack +AS doesen't work since you don't engage your opponent AND attack. Even withoit this strict interpretation there is always the question of how many free actions you can take, which by RAW is up to the GM.

#2. You can use AS every time you make a melee attack, thus it can be used to interrupt your own Full Attack, and as many times per round as you attack and succeed the Acrobatics check. You could maybe even use it in conjunction with Counterstrike, thus denying your opponent a full attack unless he uses AS himself.

I'm partial to #1, because it fits that AS is part of fluid movement in which you don't really stop but "dance" past your opponent while slicing him, and because I think getting Full attack against multiple opponents spread over an area is a bit overpowered (only Full-Auto can do similar, for obvious reasons). Aren't Assassins good enough as they are?

I might be prejudiced though because the Assassin in my group is so awesome that the Widower in TF succeded his Scholastic Lore (Legends) and had heard of him. That's pretty awesome .

This kind of stuff might fit well with Ascension level characters, and of course descriptions in Dan Abnett's books, but not with the low-level strict restrictions in attacks and movement. I mean this is a game where you cant:

-Move 2 meters and attack 3 guys in 5 seconds time.

- Fire a shot while moving (without special training)

- Fire full-auto while moving anything at all in 5 seconds time. Even despite the cyclic rate of weapons should allow one to fire FA for a second or two before moving.

-Fire S-A while moving..

etc, etc.

- Fire a shot while moving (without special training)

You sure can - you merely need to restrict your movement to a half action.

- Fire full-auto while moving anything at all in 5 seconds time. Even despite the cyclic rate of weapons should allow one to fire FA for a second or two before moving.

-Fire S-A while moving..

Assuming you accept Rogue Trader as an Errata of sorts to DH, you can do that. There, you can trade in the attack bonus for SA/FA firing for a half move.

@arkenfels

Clearly no. A Charge is a full action. So you can charge, test acrobatics and make a half move. Over.

Technically, you could get higher movement rates by using a Death Cult Assassin and his special ability to append a Multiple Attack action to a charge. That would give you *7 movement - but then again, we're talking Ascension at this point.

Cifer said:

There's a talent in Deathwatch - Preternatural Speed - that allows the same thing, but once again, we're talking about characters with well over ten thousand XP.

Cifer said:

No I don't accept RT as DH errata, I accept it as another game with similar rules, just like DW will be. Combining FA and to a lesser degree, SA, with a move of any kind means you can trade off the +10 or +20 for a +30 point blank range bonus... bye bye enemy. I might consider using it as a house rule, but it's hardly errata.

I can understand that if you use this as a house rule/RT rule, allowing AS to be combined with Full Attack might not seem too powerful.

Combining FA and to a lesser degree, SA, with a move of any kind means you can trade off the +10 or +20 for a +30 point blank range bonus... bye bye enemy. I might consider using it as a house rule, but it's hardly errata.

I've yet to find a weapon that has a range so low that it's likely you'll go from medium to short range within a single half move. Thus, your calculation would be more like going from a +30 Full Auto+Short Range bonus to a +30 Point Blank. - or from a +20 Semi Auto to a +30 Point Blank, possibly followed by your enemy's +50 PB+FA should he survive it. Yeah, I can see how that's overpowered.

Cifer said:

Granted, with the FA bonus and Short range bonus, you don't really gain much by doing so - unless you have a Shotgun like the vanaheim. With Semi Auto there is a definite advantage in bonus, which might just be what you need to get that extra killing hit.

The only thing overpowering about it is that it makes single-shot even MORE useless (non-accurate). I mean, why would you ever use a move+single shot with a stub automatic or autopistol? Amd the Hip Shooting Talent loses much of it's value here as well.

As rules go not the worst. I'm guessing you still need a full-action to pull ir off, right? So you can't brace+fire a Heavy Stubber in one turn, or rapid reload+shoot autogun in full-auto?

Granted, with the FA bonus and Short range bonus, you don't really gain much by doing so - unless you have a Shotgun like the vanaheim. With Semi Auto there is a definite advantage in bonus, which might just be what you need to get that extra killing hit.

Ok, a shotgun would make that combination interesting, but from what I've seen, shotguns need every boost they can get.

The only thing overpowering about it is that it makes single-shot even MORE useless (non-accurate). I mean, why would you ever use a move+single shot with a stub automatic or autopistol? Amd the Hip Shooting Talent loses much of it's value here as well.

Hip Shooting still has the benefit of allowing a full move instead of a half. Depending on how mobile your combats are, that's a pretty practical bonus. We recently had a classical zombie apocalypse scenario where we had to keep moving. You can bet I was glad for the combination of hip shot and a bolt pistol as everyone else always had to weigh ammo conservation, movement and killing power.

And yes, non-accurate single-shot is pretty much useless for anything other than conserving ammo if you don't pack some rather powerful weapons.

As rules go not the worst. I'm guessing you still need a full-action to pull ir off, right? So you can't brace+fire a Heavy Stubber in one turn, or rapid reload+shoot autogun in full-auto?

You're correct. It's still the same full-auto action, you merely exchange the bonus for movement.
I definitely like the rule since it puts back a little more mobility into "Search for cover, then slug it out" combats.

To get back to the original topic while retaining a little of this one (newer game systems used as Errata): Deathwatch has changed Assassin's Strike to be useable only once per round. That should definitely make it balanced even when allowing it in the midst of a Lightning Attack.

Cifer said:

Hmm that doesen't sound too bad, especially since you need to be adjascent to someone to get this kind of AS+LA. Kill one, then shift over to another enemy and complete the LA.

"To get back to the original topic while retaining a little of this one (newer game systems used as Errata): Deathwatch has changed Assassin's Strike to be useable only once per round. That should definitely make it balanced even when allowing it in the midst of a Lightning Attack."

Bear in mind though, it is easy to imagine an assasin, clad in syn-skin, slicing people up while gracefully dancing about the battlefield. I can't say the same for a hulking space-marine in his hefty, astartes, power armor.

Dancing? No. I can easily imagine a space marine crashing into and through the enemies' ranks, chopping left and right with his chainsword as he goes, an unstoppable menace moving like a heavy freight train at high speed. Of course, a Space Marine is alot more agile as his heavy suit interacts with the black carapace with practically no hindering of his movement.