I know you've all been thinking about it: I know I have. It's already come up on other parts of the forum. Anybody interested in the idea of statting up a Heresy-era set of rules for the 18 Marine Legions who took part in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy?

It would be interesting to see Legion rules for the Emperor's Children, Lunar Wolves etc etc.

There would have to be variations to existing Chapters, too. For example, it's quite possible that the Dark Angels weren't so insular and secretive during the Great Crusade, and the Ultramarines wouldn't obsess over the organisational aspects of the Codex Astartes quite so much either.

Off the top of my head, for this to work, you'd need:-

-Legion rules for each chapter

-Some rationale for players to form small, multi-Legion Player Character special forces groups like the Deathwatch (remember, this all pre-Deathwatch Chapter)

-new setting and background material

-a positive choice to be made as to exactly WHEN this is all being set. Late Crusade? Early Heresy? Mid-Heresy? Immediate Post-Heresy?

-interesting new opponents (pre-Crusade aliens like the Megarachnids and Laer, remnant human Empires to destroy etc etc)

-rules for earlier armour marks

-rules for Adeptus Custodes PCs

Setting an Astartes campaign during this era could be fun, potentially, I think, but it will require a lot of work! I might do a few bits and pieces on this stuff, but I tend to work in a fairly disorganized fashion, writing only about what interests me, when I've got the time. I've been idly thinking it might be an idea for the fanbase to do the same sort of thing, writing up things on this topic under this thread as and when it interests them as well. Hopefully after a few weeks we might end up with enough material to form some sort of fan-made database for material to use in such a Heresy-era campaign.

Or the whole idea could wither and die on the vine! But if anyone is interested in statting up original Legions as Deathwatch-style chapters, dump the stuff on this thread and we can start building this thing up a bit....

Off the top of my head, other power armour marks are going to be detailed in future DW supplements. I wonder if they'll go back to Mark 1 or 2 though.

As for Custodes, they'd be pretty unbalanced compared to SMs. A small group tore through scores of Thousand Sons, including terminators.

if I was to go into the effort of W30K, I suppose the question is how far pre-heresy you intend to go

Firstly some of the equipment in W30K was superior to what is available in W40K, technology wasn't surrounded by the mumbo jumbo of the omnimessiah as much.

Religion doesn't exist as such (again apart from the Omnimesiah lot) in fact where it was found it was stamped out utterly.

When evolving the chapters there needs to be 2 sort of factions - the terrans and those of the Primarchs home world. As is mentioned in the books many of the terrans in the chapters were wiped out in the Istavan system in the first real Marine vs Marine conflict.

Though it is munch, I would expect the original marines to be better, simply because they are of first founding Gene-seed which hasn't decayed so much over time. As such the marines live a whole lot longer, training took a lot longer also back in them days.

The discovering of the Primarchs would be pretty good campaign, especially as some of the players are united with their Leader.

I would certainly look to the build up of the heresy and certainly consider having marines from the latter day traitor chapters involved. Allowing choices, with the finale being the battle of Istavan, as of this point the campaign would need to split into the 2 sides, goodies and baddies.

Decessor said:

True. But they did have Sisters of Silence with them, to gimp the Thousand Sons' psychic powers, too. At least until the Sons realized what was happening and started sniping the Sisters.

But yeah, everything I've read leads me to believe that Custodes are a few steps above a Space Marine in raw power, toughness, and skill. Not Primarch-calibre, by any stretch, but well above the typical Space Marine.

There was a good potential plot-hook in Battle for the Abyss that would allow several different chapters to work together in a small team, at least if you're setting the game in the beginnings of the Heresy. With that in mind, I'm sure we could come up with ideas to make something like that more than a one-shot. In fact, this might even be true during the Crusades/pre-Heresy.

Hmmm ... I'll have to think on that. In any case, I like the idea. Some of my gaming group have already mentioned something similar, so I know there is interest out there.

Lightbringer said:

It would indeed be interesting, and since it has been suggested that FFG wouldn't be allowed to touch this despite the fact that it would likely be a great success, the perfect setting for fans to flesh out on their own.

There would have to be variations to existing Chapters, too. For example, it's quite possible that the Dark Angels weren't so insular and secretive during the Great Crusade, and the Ultramarines wouldn't obsess over the organisational aspects of the Codex Astartes quite so much either.

Off the top of my head, for this to work, you'd need:-

Lightbringer said:

A Thousand Sons hands that to you, with the mention that Marines can be seconded to other Chapters at any given time. One thus imagines that multiple Chapters would be present at one time, perhaps reminiscent of the concept of the "hostage" from, yes you guessed it, ye olde medieval times. That these warriors might work as much together as with the host Chapter seems reasonable (well sorta; requires a bit of fudging).

Lightbringer said:

Or, alternately, you could describe it all? You would just need to define what occurs at each point. Thus, for example, what are the Dark Angels like pre-Primarch and what changes occur when they are reunited? What are they doing in the Later Crusade? What about the Lutheran schism etc. etc. This would be similar to supplements that describe "Rome" in the various periods, noting the changes to citizenship, the armies, etc. after the 'start' period is mentioned.

So, errr, in this case the answer would imply "the earlier the better."

Lightbringer said:

As has been pointed out, these are going to be forthcoming from FFG. On the other hand, I do not see this as a suitable reason for fans not to do it first. They might get it "wrong" by the measure of FFG, but I had guidelines in place for "history" and "powers" for power armour, as well as fleshed out interpretation of Marine power armour, before FFG released Deathwatch . They're not the same, but I do not consider the exercise to have been invalidated, or rendered pointless, by FFG's interpretation.

Lightbringer said:

Because even Deathwatch needs Ascension -level characters?

Still, I think it's a great idea.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Exactly. And even if FFG do flesh out the Heresy era-stuff at some stage, it does no harm to have fan-made stuff floating around in the meantime.

Kage2020 said:

Yes, I'd agree that this is a good starting point, but it does need some fudging/work. Such an arrangement seems a little loose and informal compared to the clearly defined DW approach. And it's an important point to get right, because otherwise the whole thing won't work. Looking back at Deathwatch, it may well be the case that GW has had DW in mind as an RPG for a very long time, just because the whole concept is so neat and lends itself so nicely to PCs playing any Chapter they want.

Perhaps the 30k version could be an ad hoc formation created during the Great Crusade on the orders of Horus to increase intra-Legion cooperation and the sharing of different combat skills? After all, special forces in the modern world send their troops to cross-train with special forces from other countries. Horus was always quite big on the psychology of war This could create some grumbling among some of the Legions, and opposition to the idea, but this makes for good roleplaying.

Kage2020 said:

The problem with describing the whole period is that you'd have a hell of a lot of ground to cover, which is a bit ambitious in a fan supplement. And you'd be a bit of a hostage to fortune with developments in the Horus Heresy series of books. If you set out a full history of, for example, the attack on the Imperial Palace, and then a HH writer decides for some reason to make the showdown between Sanguinius and the bloodthirster all a holographic projection, then you're going to have difficulties!
My instinct would be to take the FFG/BI approach and reserve yourself a part of the canon and work within it. Like you say - go earlier. I'm thinking climax of the Great Crusade, shortly after the recovery of the last Primarch (Alpharius) but before Horus is formally declared Warmaster. If you stick to that narrow timeframe (20-50 years or so) you can be a bit creative within it, describing whole tracts of the galaxy that haven't been covered at all. This would allow for some innovation and creativity.

The HH series doesn't cover this period, so you wouldn't necessarily be having conflicts with the expanding canon.

As for armour, I knew that FFG plans to deal with armour, but again, there's no harm in covering it a bit here, alongside earlier bolter patterns, Dreadclaw assault pods etc etc. It'll get overtaken by FFG's material, but it won't do any harm in the meantime. And I think Custodes could make for a fun element to chuck in once we've got into the swing of the rest of the setting!

Prior to the actual Horus Heresy there certainly was plenty of heretical activity going on. In fact you could work in the missing "Expunged" 2 chapters for some lolz

There is the corruption of the Word Bearer's by far the first to become corrupt, and also the first to break the rules on worship by promoting the divinity of the Emperor.

Here is my take on the missing 2 chapters

In the chaos vortex that sent the primarchs to their "homeworlds", 2 were taken by the Chaos forces. From these 2 primarchs the great 4 working in unison (Chaos Undivided) learnt the desires and fears of these captured Primarchs, and with this knowledge discovered insidious ways to turn more forces against the Emperor. Knowing the religious quirks of the WorldBearers, they began a slow infiltration and the great plot that almost destroyed the emperor once and for all. The emperor knowing that 2 of his trusted were turned then proceeded to investigate ways of protecting the rest of his sons, and started the creation of the great throne, which when completed would host to his greatest psychic son, Magnus, and create an uncorruptable bond between his sons and himself, and forever be protected from the depredations of the chaos taint on his Adeptus Astartes.

The Emperor being so dedicated to his great task, and focusing too much perhaps on a future he had forseen, and believing Magnus would obey him unconditionally, the Emperor returned to the Terra Catacombs to finish his work

This also explains the Decree of Nikaea, as the emperor needed to protect magnus from the deviance of chaos long enough to finish his task.

But as we know Magnus blew up the Throne, so none of it could come to pass, and the darker future came to be.

Discovering the corruption of 1 of the 2 expunged chapters could be a great plot hook in itself, and maybe could foreshadow the whole heresy.

The missing two Legions will always be a huge point of fan speculation...and to be honest I'd be leery of tackling them for that reason. Everyone has their own take on them, and I'd hate to put people off a "mainstream" Warhammer 30k treatment by imposing any view upon the canon.

For the early marks of armour FFG said in another book.

Lightbringer said:

Lightbringer said:

Agreed. But still ... FatPob's idea has very intriguing possibilities, no?

Anyway, here's an alternative. What if the missing Primarchs were thrown so far from Terra that the Ruinous Powers justly assumed that the Emperor would never find them? And what if ... they used that, along with their great abilities in deception, to convince Him (or Horus) that they had been hopelessly corrupted (whether true or not). What if ... they were somehow reunited with their Legion in the course of the Crusades, but were so far out that no one else even knew about it? Now, what if there is still a Legion out there that doesn't even know that the Heresy happened, and that the Emperor is "entombed" on the Golden Throne? What if ... Imperial forces were to suddenly come upon them? I can see epic drama here. Just a thought of mine, but there ya go.

I know, this flies in the face of the fiction (BL novels) that we've been fed.

But still, it could lead to some interesting RP, at least in my opinion.

Lightbringer said >>>

Exactly. And even if FFG do flesh out the Heresy era-stuff at some stage, it does no harm to have fan-made stuff floating around in the meantime.

Indeed. I feel the same way about all materials. You never know, the good writers/producers might even come to the attention of FFG as freeloaders... Freelancers, I mean. (I'm joking about the freeloader thing!)

Lightbringer said >>>

Yes, I'd agree that this is a good starting point, but it does need some fudging/work.

That's why I mentioned the historic concept of the hostage, rather than illegally-taken hostages. You could work with the idea that they are taken as surety or, later on perhaps, as "hostages" to the camaraderie and ersatz "brotherly love." One can argue that, given the relative independence of the Primarchs, this might have been considered necessary for those expeditionary forces that were comprised of multi-Legion forces.

Of course, that's just the most obvious one. You could use the same but give it a defined leader (from the home Legion) that could be intertwined with the Chapter Squad and Solo Modes in a more subtle fashion?

Another obvious alternative is that these individuals are from expeditionary forces that have been hammered into near destruction, and the tattered remnants must now work together.

Either way you're working with certain contrivances, but the "hostage" situation at least can come with attendant premises of honour, loyalty to ones Legion, etc. Heck, even the "no true leader" concept can be brought across, e.g. because it exchanges to introduce the different fighting styles.

Lightbringer said >>>

Such an arrangement seems a little loose and informal compared to the clearly defined DW approach. And it's an important point to get right, because otherwise the whole thing won't work.

I think that to be "true to the setting" you would have to be able to incorporate games that involved Marines of a single Legion. It would require the expansion of options for the various Modes and Oaths, but one would imagine that is in part what the "Deathwatch Handbook" would do.

Lightbringer said >>>

Perhaps the 30k version could be an ad hoc formation created during the Great Crusade on the orders of Horus to increase intra-Legion cooperation and the sharing of different combat skills?

Ah, you latched onto this as well. The term "hostage" is just an appropriate medieval term and concept, and since "medieval Europe" is often used by many for a cultural referent? Whether it is just a name or alludes to something deeper is another matter entirely. Regardless of the name, that's the reason that I mentioned A Thousand Sons since that is, after all, exactly what was happening (IIRC; it is exactly how I remember it if nothing else).

Lightbringer said >>>

The problem with describing the whole period is that you'd have a hell of a lot of ground to cover, which is a bit ambitious in a fan supplement.

I guess it depends on whether you want something quick and easy, or something slower and more expansive. With that said, I think that you might over-estimate the complexity. Such a fan supplement would most obviously require:

• G/DAoT History and the Age of Strife. The Reunification Wars, the Primarchs, the formation of the Legions.
• Description of the Legions in this period.
• The Great Crusade (recently started).
• Finding the Primarchs and changes to the Legions. (Perhaps you might argue that the original Marines are more the "faceless" Marines that some prefer from the RT era, and the post-Primarch Legions have more "personality.")
• Additional suggestions/setting follow that (not necessary since the information on the Great Crusade is pretty spotty).
• The Eve of War, or describing some of the lead-up to the Horus Heresy including speculation/'fluff' on the Word Bearers, etc. Changes to the structure of the Imperium in and around this time and the implications for Expeditionary Fleets.
• The Horus Heresy, events, etc.
• Equipment.
• Game crunch specifics (additional Chapter Squad and Solo Modes, natures, demeanours), etc.
• Playing "hostages"/combat teams, playing single Legion games, etc.
• Victims.

I would guestimate that the 'fluff' additions to keep it fairly neutral, and assuming (!) that you're not wanting to produce a complete supplement (i.e. you only refer to the original rules, not replicate them whole suite), are going to be fairly easy to produce. The real challenge is in the sheer amount of crunch that is associated with Deathwatch .

Of course, there's a difference between seeing how it could all break down with relative ease and then getting people to work on the individual components.

Lightbringer said >>>

And you'd be a bit of a hostage to fortune with developments in the Horus Heresy series of books. If you set out a full history of, for example, the attack on the Imperial Palace, and then a HH writer decides for some reason to make the showdown between Sanguinius and the bloodthirster all a holographic projection, then you're going to have difficulties!

No more than if FFG selected to do a Horus Heresy supplement. After all, in your own words: "...it does no harm to have fan-made stuff floating around in the meantime."

If you are really worried about such things, despite the original comment, then just create the rules for the Legions and leave the Horus Heresy to the information that anyone can find in the BL novels or for free on the Interwebz. That way you're just left with the crunch of it all, and producing the appropriate 'fluff' on the Legions.

Lightbringer said >>>

...describing whole tracts of the galaxy that haven't been covered at all. This would allow for some innovation and creativity.

Whatever twiddles your biscuit. That you might consider "describing whole tracts of the galaxy" less ambitious then patching together some general history of the Great Crusade is... surprising. Again, though, it really does depend on how true you are to that statement about fan-made material. Beyond the idea of creating the option for the "multi-Legion" units, if you want to avoid this don't bother with writing anything and leave it to the individual that selects to play in the period. Then there is zero-chance that they're going to contradict the 'fluff' because you've hardly produced anything.

Similarly, one might question the facility of a blow-by-blow description of the Siege of Terra because this is both likely to happen anyway, and also are people going to have different takes on this anyway? The same applies for segments of the galaxy since, after all, how much detail are you going to provide when describing "whole tracts" that someone couldn't set up in a few paragraphs themselves?

Either way, they were only suggestions. Do what thou wilt and all that jazz.

Lightbringer said >>>

It'll get overtaken by FFG's material, but it won't do any harm in the meantime. And I think Custodes could make for a fun element to chuck in once we've got into the swing of the rest of the setting!

It is intriguing that you have a different approach to 'fluff' and 'crunch.' This isn't a criticism, just an observation. I was intrigued enough by the idea to suggest that if they ever get their act together (real life is a goitre) and pull together the Drupal version of their site (Dark Reign), that this becomes one of the "living settings" that people might be intrigued to work on together. Then again, maybe not. Or, at least, send them to an appropriate place to help out (single threads have a tendency of splurging out).

Kage

Just a point about the armour:

Mk1 is useless for SM because they lacked full hermetic attribute, legs are not part of armour.

MK2 / MK3 Have the helmet fixed with the torso not turning with the head.

Mk3 Armour are much more harder in front than actual armour and a weakest dorsal plating

Other pattern from Mk4 to 8 are more or less the same

For more detail check

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour