N0-1_H3r3 said:

13,000 xp according to page 27.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Marines get 13k xp. DH/RT characters should start with 14k per page 34. I assume this is because marines have so many inherent bonuses that even Vindicares need a 1k advantage to keep up. Then again, it could just be further shoddy editing.

I would probably say that beyond the 1k XP, the special abilities DW characters get also set them apart from more "vanilla" marines. That it is those individuals who set themselves apart from their brothers with exceptional accuracy or leadership (in the case of tac marines), or showing exceptional ability against hordes of foes, or great ability in holding defensive positions (in the case of devastators).

Basically, all but the tech marine and librarian special abilities could be considered what set them apart and brought them to the attention of their superiors for the purposes of secondment to the Deathwatch. In the case of librarians and techmarines, I imagine they are already "specialist" enough to warrant secondment to the Deathwatch.

In my interpretation, secondment to the Deathwatch is not so much a matter of having centuries of experience, but rather a matter of displaying exceptional skill and ability. Especially if said skill lends itself to the less conventional ways of the Deathwatch.

Methinks that target was missed to a significant degree even if the point made is interesting in a completely different topic of discussion. Ah well.

Kage

Luddite said:

Yeah - that is a lot of why Deathwatches Marines are so disappointing. They are the best, so all the other Marines are worse, which makes the average Marine distinctly unimpresive.

AluminiumWolf said:

That is perhaps one of the scariest things that I've heard.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Perhaps if they would have started from the ground up with space marines (say introduce Scouts in Dark Heresy, Novice Marines in Rogue Trader and so forth) they we could see exactly what separates the Men (DW Marines) from the Bous (Other Marines).

The fact that scouts/initiates are choosen from young men from various worlds (based on Chapter) would leave me to believe that scouts/intiates are on par with Dark Heresy low rank characters (1, 2 or 3) and would "develope" their ability to use, grow into, or "mutate" from the organ implants as they go. Granted the Scout with Unnatural Strength and Toughness and Carapace armour and bolt pistol would be much better then a mere Acolyte, but he may fit in well in Rogue Trader (where characters can start with mutations that give Unnatural Strength RAW anyway).

Again, Im going to have to dig out Patriots Space Marine rules.

hi everybody!

If you wanna know more or less what a space marine Characteristic look for the unofficial work call Codex Astartes made on the DH rules.

http://www.darkreign40k.com/

you can just see the path from the beggining (even buying your implants for making them avaible) with young scouts to veteran status at 13000 xp.

you will then see how powerfull your DW characters are.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well, my comment was more directed at the idea that "Deathwatch Marines are so disappointing," as expressed by AluminiumWolf. I've been spending a bit more time with the book (the friend who bought it wasn't too pleased with the game) and have been looking at all the "buffs" that the Deathwatch Marines receive. To suggest that they're "disappointing" floored me, to be honest. Not only do they have their impressive stat line, but then they're buffed through the Solo and Squad Mode abilities, the numerous Talents/Traits, the Oaths, etc. All do much to reinforce the common image of the Space Marine, or the "MArnie-nator." I mean, even dying makes these guys more powerful! (And not in a particularly believable fashion, but YMMV with that.)

And remember: "It's not a tumour!"

With the tongue-in-cheek commentary (or at least tone) aside, has not the argument already been presented that they have been built from the "ground up." While at the time it kind of missed the point, it does seem relevant here. All the abilities that they get from their zygotes are factored into the "XP cost" of 13,000 in DH terms. The only thing that is really different in ThePatriot's rules is that you have to go through all the slog to get those abilities (because it's fun roleplaying teenagers going through extensive reconstructive surgery). On the other hand, that might be an interesting comparison. Use ThePatriot's fan supplement to create a "full Marine" and see what it looks like?

Edit: And it's at this juncture that I realise that Thebigjul just said that.

Kage

In order to have a chance of living up to their reputation Marines need to be orders of magnitude harder than Dark Heresy mooks, not just a little harder.

There are only one million Space Marines in the entire imperium. One company is enough to take a planet.

They need to be tough.

Are you their press agent?

On the other hand that does seem to be a part of the problem when it comes to interpreting Marines. I guess the question is just how buffed you want your MArnies. DW has them pretty buff as it stands...

Kage

Kage2020 said:

And I even "buff" them some more by

a) interpreting near failures as partial successes (most of the time)

and

b) making fairly mundane tasks for which DH chars might have to roll (climbing into the first floor of ruined building) an automatic success (most of the time).

This works very nicely to bring across the epic feeling of the campaign. And it shifts the player's focus more on the big picture, the grand strategy, etc.

Alex

bizarre thread de-railment towards the end there, however there are many things one can comment about many combat systems.

Gurps (2nd ed) was great realistic combat system but took too long bearing in mind its 1 second rounds. 3rd ed improved it somewhat but it is still a little clunky once the munchkin advantages are taken into account.

Chaosism CoC/Runequest d100 system works nicely also, but can be utterly viscious.

Then you got DnD etc.

One thing they all have in common in many ways is Power Scaling. As the Protagonists get more powerful, so do the enemies, and this is what DW does suffer from.

In many cases the "baddies" have to hit so hard that all marines are in danger of being 1-shotted, particularly by the Elite baddies.

Bolters and heavy bolters are very powerful, and SMs in DW are much much tougher then any of the characters in the range. What steps the SMs apart is not only their training (and genetic alterations) but also their equipment.

So yes Bolters are OP compared to other games, but this is because it is the best of the best, and probably in the economic scale of the Imperium a tiny amount of the armaments produced (1 million bolters, and maybe 3 million spares for 4 million total, not really a great deal in the scale of things).

With that in mind, it is easy to see why the Astartes weapons are so much better, as they will have been individually crafted from start toi finish, and not the mass produced rubbish of the imperial guard.

AluminiumWolf said:

Take. Not hold or maintain.

FatPob said:

You'll find that threads tend to be fairly organic, and what is to one person a "thread re-railment" is anothers flow of discussion as it moves naturally from one point to another as one topic becomes tired, repetitive, or whatever.

Also, you had a typographic. You had inserted "Gurps" in there, but it seems that you were talking about Deathwatch .

*whistles innocently*

Kage

Peacekeeper_b said:

Space Marines shouldn't be used to hold a planet. That is the job of the Imperial Guard.

ItsUncertainWho said:

They're certainly strong enough to hold a planet. I wonder if that would count as moderately encumbered or heavily encumbered?

Anyway, off to find ThePatriot's rules and see if I can make my way through the DH advancement system for the sake of comparison. You never know, after that it might get back to being a thread about bolters.

Kage

ItsUncertainWho said:

Except Ultramarines of course.

They hold, maintain govern and administer many worlds within the Dominion of Ultramar.

In addition to fighting across every sector of the Imperium in overwhelming force...

Luddite said:

Of course the Ultramarines are capable of doing that... with only millions upon millions of some of the best PDF in the Galaxy.

AluminiumWolf said:

There are many fine warriors throughout our history with fearsome reputations and I don't them any of them needing to be genetically superior. Unless you are saying they were, racist

Also the Titan legions have a fearsome reputation but their Princeps don't need to be individually better than everyone else when they are inside a titan. So you know, gear goes someway towards it.

And finally, if you really want to multiply the effectiveness of your force you'll want the best tactical mobility possible (APC's all round, dropships / pods), tireless warriors (worth what 3-5 times a trooper that gets nackered after a few hours and needs to sleep at night), incredible wound recovery and fearless troops. Beyond that, making them hit 9 times out of 10 rather than 8 times is pretty pointless on battlefield. If that was the case they wouldn't bother with 90% of their magic organs and jsut a have a targetting computer and extra muscle.

Face Eater said:

I think that there's a point to be made there, for those that want to make it.

Kage