"And they shall know no fear..."

so me and my gang started our first round of deathwatch, took us a while to get everyone's characters up and running, but we got a mission started

our GM has us bringing order to a planet but first we need to reactivate some senor relays that orbit the planet as space stations,

he had us fighting tyranid Hormaguants and a few termaguants, he quickly found that we were shrugging off most attacks like they didn't matter, he he decided to bring a warrior into play, which has a fear rating of 3, now here is where my question comes in,

how does fear affect space marines, while there are normal fear and shock tables they are stated to be used only when dealing with the deathwatch marine's non-astartes npc companions, to book states that marines feel fear but feel it differently, than normal humans, the problem is that it doesn't really make it clear how it affects the marines, there was something about it making willpower rolls against the creature much harder, but doesn't go into much greater detail than that,

one of our players too fearless as a trait right off because fear was always a cripplingly effective at taking our players our when we were playing dark heresy and now he feels a bit bitter that it is basically a worthless skill unless he is fighting a high level psyker since under other circumstances you wouldn't need that make willpower to fight a non psyker

so what i am asking is how is fear affecting your games, have you had any homebrew rules you ended up using for it, or am i and my fellow player completely silly in gripping that fearless is vastly overpriced for its usefulness

-cromwell

I'm not sure what there is to not understand. The book specifically states how Fear affects Space Marines in the 2 bullet-points under the "And They Shall Know No Fear..." subheading. If you are in Solo Mode, you gain -10 to Willpower rolls for each degree of Fear the opponent has (so Fear (2) would give you -20 to Willpower), and if you are in Squad Mode, you lose 1 Cohesion point for each degree of Fear unless the Squad Leader passes a Willpower test.

In regards to this: Does this modification of willpower (solo mode) count as a attribute loss indirectly?
All the time since I first read about fear and space marines in the book I wondered what would happen if a solo willpower 35 space marine
stood against a fear(4) beast,

Well, the Marine in question would still have WP35 untill he needs to make a roll that required wilpower (like vs a psychic ability) and then he has to roll lower than -15 on a d100, basically let him fail automatically or you can give him a chance roll of 0-5% (a 'classic' critical) since it's rather obvious he's got a lower score than zero.

But as long as nothing happens that would require him to 'use' is WP, the Marine functions as on any other day, happily slaying the foes of Humanity.

The rules seem particularly harsh on Librarians as a high fear beastie will effectively gimp their psyker powers unless they are super badass. It seems strange as these guys are normally the ones you want going up against monstrous creatures.

Cromwell Bootstrap said:

Better than pissing their pants and running screaming like so many DH characters

In truth, I was expecting it to work more like the TT where I thought it was dealt with quite well, they could still be pushed back and 'shocked' but auto rallied.

As it is they can pretty mcuh ignore it, except for the Psykers, and possible being forced into solo mode.

Cromwell Bootstrap said:

Indeed this is an issue that I have as well.

Hmmm one the other hand, no marine remains unaffected. Even if not directkly affected, the (potential) loss of cohesion affects the whole group. This loss represents the loss in cocnentrations, which is exactly the same reason why I can understand a psyker's ability could be affected.

Except you need to remember that, out of all of the Marines, the Librarian is likely going to be the one with the highest Willpower, and as such the one that's most likely to pass his Fear test.

Plus, if you are in Squad Mode, the Solo mode penalties don't apply, so you'd only lose Cohesion, and not get the modifier to Willpower.

This is also ignoring that, by the time you are running into Fear(4) monsters, you really should be high enough in Rank to be able to get various Talents that allow you to start ignoring Fear, or gain modifiers to Fear.

I really don't see the modifiers as that big a problem.

MILLANDSON said:

This is incorrect.

5 starting Deathwatch Marine characters, of which one is a Librarian, are on a mission to blah blah blah...

They burn through hordes of little Tyranid beasties on their way.

The GM decides to throw 3 Tyranid Warriors at the group. Not too tough, as the bugs are only slightly better than an average Marine.

Only they have a Fear Rating of 2....

So, now the Marines need to pass a Fear Test with a -20% modifier. Now, assuming that every Marine in the group is average, that only gives them a 20% chance to pass their test. Considering that the Marines are not going to do anything that needs a WP Test, it's no big deal.

Only, the Librarian, who would have a 50 Willpower (the highest that they can have as a starting character on average), is in trouble. They only have a 30% chance to use their abilities.

Kind of sucks to be a Librarian...

Personally, I was most frustrated by this game mechanic. Space Marines are known for their "And They Shall Know No Fear..." rules. Even the EMPEROR said this about his Angels of Death.

I think it would have been MUCH better for there to be a modified Shock Table for Marines ONLY. Each Degree of Failure would cause a teired result...

Fail - The Marine is startled, and can only perform a 1/2 action on his next turn

-10 - The Marine is taken aback, and may not perform any actions, other than Reactions, on his next turn.

-20 - The Marine is shocked, and will try to fall back to a more defensive position in cover.

-30+ - The Marine is stunned, and can not perform any actions or react for 1 turn.

This is a rough idea, but it illustrates my point.

I wasn't sure if they still got to make the fear test - the 'And they shall no know fear' section indicated that other rules should be ignored and the wording 'when facing a fear causing foe...' seemed to preclude a resistance test so I thought it was an automatic effect. If there's a chance to avoid it then it's definitely more reasonable. Thanks for that.

Not making the fear test means normal humans are better than marines. No way. I think fear effect can be shaken off as well. So if a librarian missed the first test he can do it again after in the next turns. But i agree it is not clear at all form the book.

Btw, 50 wp +10 focus +15 (3 pr) that is 75 base to manifest a power.

It is still not too hard to do with -20. And if you are in a squad mode you doen even have to face this negativce effect.

I think that your all forgetting that in squad mode, only one person makes a Fear check, and if he fails it you lose some cohesion. Not a big loss. Solo mode you gain some Insanity points, but not much, you dont even run away. So all a psyker has to do is switch to squad mode and he is fine. Fear is more effective on those NPC.

Also I have some doubts if the WP modifer counts against WP, unless your making a fear test. Thats just me though. So just take it with a grain of salt.

Remember that if the Librarian is in squad mode, he doesn't suffer the Willpower penalty... just make sure you have a good leader with a high WP score and be stingy with the cohesion points. Beside, if the Leader is an Ultramarine he can give back Cohesion and pretty much nullify the effect.

The other thing is that IMO, Librarian are just sick in this game, capable of doing damage that far exceeds Heavy Weapon even right out of the gate, so them having a harder time against the most dangerous enemy so you actually get to fight them rather than watch the Librarian squint his eyes and the bad guy blow up is a good thing, not a bad thing.

And hell, Fear isn't even that bad...

Let's take the 3 Warrior example…

Let’s assume a Willpower of 50 and a Librarian with Smite. Let’s assume a group of 3 Warriors.

Librarian attempts to cast Smite which he pushes to the Maximum level. 50 WP – 20 (Fear) + 15 (Push) + 10 (Fate Point).

The Warriors will most likely be within close range (30m) as they are close combat specialists and gain little from staying afar, so tack on another +10. So our Librarian now has 65% chance to hit. Not bad at all. Even if he decides not to use the Fate point, he’s still at over 50% chance of success.

The average on a D10 is 5.5, so let’s round it up to 6. The Librarian will deal 60 Damage with Pen 6 to a Warrior which will kill it (Get it at 0 wound)… if the other Warriors are within 6 meters of the original target (And that is quite possible), than he may very well 2 or all 3 with one cast. The Warrior can dodge, but with 44 AGI and no Dodge skill, that’s only a 22% chance of escape.

Yes, it risks a peril of the warp… but it is well worth the risk considering how dangerous 3 warriors can be in combat and that you can just basically blow all 3 of them up with one glance. Even if you only kill one, you've just lowered the risk to your team by a lot.

And keep in mind that if the Librarian is in Squad Mode, he can do this with a 75% (85% with fate point) chance of success. Also keep in mind that Fear never really gets worse than -30 to willpower, while a Librarian can get his Willpower in the 7X, get a Psychic Hood (+5 Focus Power) and get other Bonus on top of that (Lead by Example from an Ultramarine comes to mind...)

Yes, poor wittle Librarian… he's totally screwed by Fear causing opponents

Still trying to piece together the steps for resolving fear - having the normal and marines rules mixed together is a bit confusing.

It seems to me that 'And they shall no know fear' triggers from a failed fear test from any marine PC. If in solo mode the marine incurs the WP penalty listed. Job done.

If in squad mode the squad leader then gets a WP test to avoid cohesion damage. Does this mean that the squad leader makes an initial fear test with the rest of his men and then a second cohesion test or should the result of his first test be applied to the squad? It feels like the second test should be a command test rather than a WP test.

Does the squad take a cohesion hit for each marine that failed their fear test or just a single penalty? I'm leaning towards just a single penalty.

It also appears that a creature applies its fear effect once and if you have multiple fear causing creatures you use the highest. If you have a fear (3) and a fear (2) monster in he same fight you resolve the fear effect as fear (3). In round 2 if the squad failed its first cohesion test does that mean that the squad must resolve a fear (2) effect since the fear (3) monster has already inflicted cohesion damage or is the fear 2 monster ignored completely?

If the squad are dumped out of squad mode from cohesion damage do we make new fear tests or use the original ones? I reckon we use the originals.

I think I need a flowchart of some kind...

Fear occurs once per combat, upon percieving the thing that causes fear. The worst fear value is used.

For marines in solo mode: They must make an individual fear test, and if they fail, suffer the above mentioned WP penalty

For marines in squad mode: The squad leader makes a WP test (note not a fear test, fearless does not help here), or the squad will suffer cohesion damage equal to the fear rating.

If dumped out of squad mode due to loss of cohesion, I would rule that no further test is needed (as they already suffered the negative hit from loss of squad mode).

I would say joining the squad does not remove the penalty (as that is kinda cheesy).

And yes, this basically does make the Black Templar fearless talent kinda useless (GMs should probably refund the xp (and remove the talent), if a player bought it assuming a more DH/RT style of fear).

Or just make it so Fearless work on that roll (and it should really), making it actually quite good.

Then a BT tac marine with the tactical mastery (or whatever its called), actually becomes a bit too good almost, pretty much rivaling an Ultramarines tac marine as squad leader (higher cohesion from command skill, or better against fear/actually nifty chapter abilities).

Overall, it wouldn't be too bad, but it pretty much allows a squad to totally ignore fear (but I guess being forced to fight at every encounter)

Well, I don't really see the problem to be honest.

From what I can see, Black Templar are gimped by losing 2 extra organs (not the most useful ones, but still), can't be psychers or devastators and they have a Solo Mode and Defensive Stances that are extremely situational (Not every game will have psychers. Hell, not every campaign... if your DM has an idea involving Tau for example, a lot of Black Templar ability are totally pointless)... they don't really get anything to make up for all of that.

From a 'power level' point of view, they are a very weak chapter as it is. They kind of make me think of all those Giant/Dragon/Whatever slayers in other RPGs - awesome when you're fighting what they're designed to fight, but subpar against everything else.

I don't really see a problem with throwing the Tactical Marine Templar a bone.

Beside, I think you're nitpicking a little... yes, it says Willpower roll, not Fear roll, but it is a Willpower roll to determine the effect of Fear. Beside, Fearless doesn't say 'you succeed any roll to resist fear', it says 'the character is immune to the effect of Fear'. To me, that would imply that a Fearless squad leader can't lose cohesion - Fear has no effect on him.

The way that the rules are written are woefully entangled and confusing, as they mention that the rules are only for allies and that Brother marines don't Fear the things that their allies would, yet then go ahead and provide you rules for taking Fear tests and even gaining Insanity Points, even though the book also points out that marines don't gain really gain insanity points or go insane.

I think what I will implement as GM is a house rule that states: Marines can ignore Fear (X) effects that are half their level (rounding down). So a marine with 17,000 to 24,999 XP (Level 3) can ignore Fear (1) creatures. One more XP, and said marine can ignore Fear (2) creatures. So as the marines gain experience and face more and more terrifying creatures they become more and more inured to scary stuff.

This also allows Fearless to still be a useful trait (at least up until level 8).

Any thoughts?

Fearless is a useful trait thought.

A Fearless Marines never take a - to his WP when faced with fearsome foes and a Fearless Squad leader never lose cohesion point from Fear.

From what I read, this is what happens:

Come across a Fear causing enemy.

-If in solo mode, take a -% penalty to your Willpower when called to make checks with it. You do not take Fear tests, for You Shall Know No Fear, so no insanity points can be caused by Fear.

-if in squad mode, squad leader makes a Willpower test -% penalty caused by Fear. If he passes, no cohesion lost. If he fails, lose some cohesion.

That's it.

No insanity points, no Shock tables, nothing else is done.

SpawnoChaos said:

This is how I read it as well. Its just a flat-out negative, nowhere does it say you make a test. Its slightly implied, but doesn't say to do so. As such, a Fear (2)enemy (Tyranid Shrikes in my case) pretty much reduced my librarian to the point where he said "its not worth even trying to use the powers" so he just shot stuff with his bolt pistol. This is where I have an issue. I will likely, regardless of how it is suppose to be done, require a "Fear check", if failed, then the -WP applies. Otherwise it looks like my Librarian will just go to Squad Mode every time Fear shows up regardless of the intent to do anything with the squad, which kind of defeats the purpose/feel of Squad Mode IMHO.

That section looks a little strange indeed...

I'd assume the following, though that's partly my idea of how the rules should work, not how I read them:

-If a battle-brother is in solo-mode or drops out of squad mode while facing a fear-causing enemy, he makes a fear test . On a failure, he suffers the penalty to WP checks for as long as he remains in solo-mode. I derive the existence of the test from the fact that the paragraph titled 'Fear' that explains how to make the Fearh test is located before the 'And They Shall Know No Fear' part which itself preceds the consequences of fear for everyone who does know it.

-If there is at any time any battle-brother in squad mode while facing a fear-causing enemy, the squad leader has to make a WP test. On a failure, his squad suffers cohesion damage.

Since the latter test is not a command test, it seems to be about how well the leader can hold his own against the fear and thus inspire the others. As such, it would IMO be affected by Fearless and all the other fear-affecting talents. Meaning that yes, when expecting lots and lots of fear-causing opponents, making the crazy religious fanatic the squad leader might be a good idea.

@KommissarK

Then a BT tac marine with the tactical mastery (or whatever its called), actually becomes a bit too good almost, pretty much rivaling an Ultramarines tac marine as squad leader (higher cohesion from command skill, or better against fear/actually nifty chapter abilities).

I don't see how that is a bad thing as Deathwatch repeatedly emphasizes that Squad Leaders should be chosen on a per-mission basis. IMO, it's almost a little sad that Tactical marines are so obviously geared towards leadership, Cohesion being reliant on Fellowship and Tacticals as the only ones with cheap Fellowship advances and several leader-type talents. I guess most groups will get a Tactical Smurf as more or less permanent leader, only to be exchanged for the few situations when one absolutely needs powers of the other specialisations.

kenshin138 said:

It's odd to me how many people seem to be having problems with their starting off Librarian.

I ran the last half of Oblivions Edge this weekend with the new rulebook. I allowed them to create their characters using the XP gained from Final Sanction (around 1,800 xp) added to their starting xp of 1,000 (total of 2,800 xp to spend).

It's kinda funny, they entered the boarding torpedoes as the demo characters, and emerged as their new characters. Some Warp play that was.

Anyway, the Librarian's Willpower was 53 after the upgrades and putting his highest stat into it at character creation and his starting psi-rating of 3 as usual.

They entered the room with the Tyranid Prime (I knew this was supposed to be a Hive Tyrant, so I replaced it with the actual Hive Tyrant stats from the Deathwatch rulebook). They decided to take the bonus mission and try to kill the Hive Tyrant.

The plan was to sneak up to it and place a bunch of melta-bombs at it's feet. After placing around 3 melta-bombs at its feet, they took up positions to fight it.

Long story short, bombs went off, took down 3/4 of it's wounds, and it wakes up. The Librarian wanted to Smite it as his action, so he proceeded to make his Focus Power Test. Here were the modifiers:

Base 53 Willpower - 40% from Fear Rating 4, +30% for Push (Psy rating 6, 5 x Psy Rating = 30) = 43% Willpower check.

He passed the check and Smites the Hive Tyrant... and that's with Fear Rating 4 ! It doesn't get any worse than that.