My group is currently torn between two different campains that we have yet to start:

Rogue Trader - Space Combat, Piracy, Exploration, and Criminal Trade - highly individual

Death Watch - Spacemarines Xenos Hunters - highly collective

It was suggested we simply combine the two as Chaos Space Marine heretic pirates. But would this work? The problem I see is the PCs won't have the skills of a Rogue Trader (lacking in those classes) if they're Space Marines (Chaos or Otherwise). I don't want to just give them skills or classes because I'm worried about balance. Not to mention, I don't want to create an entire supplement. Could Alternate Career Ranks work? What about packaging some of the career skills from Rogue Trader into Deathwatch to allow Corsairs Void Master skills? If there were no non-Marine PCs then I could see a Rogue Trader ACP, Void Master APC, Explorator APC, complete with Class features. Then again, I could see a Word Bearers Chaplain (Though Technically couldn't be a Red Corsair) have a Missionary ACP. How much is necessary? How much is portable? What do you think?

Alternatively we could play troupe style and scrap the entire thing. But I thought it would be a good experiment in testing the system's flexibility. I'm interested to see how far the system can go without falling apart. At a glance, I think it can handle it easily. The Ork Freebooter is impressive in its flexibility, range and depth. But Chaos Space Marines must mutate in a different manner. They become Daemon Princes, not NPC blobs. Would this have to be altered too. Again, we haven't played enough DH to see Corruption surpass Insanity. What should be done about Corruption? If anything?

At the time that Deathwatch and Rogue Trader are set, the Badab War hasn't actually happened yet, and the Red Corsairs are still the Astral Claws

But yea, it wouldn't be that difficult to pull off a game like that, other than the fact that it's going to be harder to go to planets that don't want you dead for being traitors if you are traitor Space Marines.

Sometimes it's hard to tell one acid-spitting, brain-eating combat monster from another. A non-mutated Traitor marine might be able to pass himself off as a Loyalist to "Imperials" along the fringes of the Imperium (like Frontier Worlds).

HappyDaze said:

Which is exactly how the Alpha Legion gets around.

And how they entered the Expanse, IIRC.

Remember too that they might have npc servents/slaves who do the actual running of the ship, with a somewhat loyal CSM standing over them while the party is away.

Or it could be some manner of daemon ship or something?

Yes, technically the timeline was rewound so the Badab war hasn't happened. But considering we know it has happened, it's rather easy to play catch up.

A big reason why I brought this up is only player desperately wants to play a Navigator. Obviously, there are no SM Navagators. More so, there is no legit reason to have a Navigator tagging along with a Death Watch Kill Team. Chaos doesn't play by "the rules" so it becomes a non-issue. Of course, we'd have to give more Exp to the Navigator to catch up to the 13K mark! He laughed, saying it feels more like Traveller! (Since Navigators get new mutations, surviving the character creation after going through several career ranks has the feel of a hazardous character creation.)

I was talking with another friend today and it made some sense to try and expand on the Legions to include Traitor Legions - World Eaters, Word Bearers, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, etc. This would be an undertaking but it should prove fun. I'll pen some Alternate career advances for CSM Pirates and post them in the house rules over the next week. They'll start out pretty tame, just basic ideas, rather than full-blown, untested goodness.

Atomic_Pope said:

Popy, I may think you're a madman, but I think we can agree on one thing...

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Basically I would just make characters as per normal Deathwatch and substitute the "Deathwatch general advancements" and "Chapter advancements" for new, campaign-specific tables. As Chaos don't play by the rules there is not fluff reason you can't put a Navigator into the party. However, getting him involved in the missions might require some heavy thinking, because even experienced RT characters will be extremely fragile in any combat that will be suitably challanging to Deathwatch characters. So unless your Navigator is going about in power armor, force field and heavy cybernetics he'll is very likely to end up dead in first contact.

From the get go I would highly recommend not letting the players play chaos, its a road of darkness and madness that even most of the black library writers avoid with good reason, with that in mind you do still have options.

From the new stuff coming out we know the Badab war was a screw over where loyal marines faced against loyal marines. Personally I think a campaign about the fall of the Astral Claws would really work well with the players at first dealing with their normal duties and as the campaign goes on getting more and more mixed up with how events play out. As the main role of the Astral Claws, Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamenters is to patrol the maelstrom rogue trader style ship based stuff makes sense. As the events play out you'll end up with players who are Red Corsairs but may or may not have turned to chaos in the end.

You might also consider a dual campaign where the marines are based on a rogue trader ship, have the players roll up two sets of characters and play out which ever is appropriate for the time. Hell you could even give them a third set of Dark Heresy characters who root out the missions for the ship and crew in the first place.

There are renegade space marines that haven't been zapped by the chaos fiends.

If people want to Play marines let them, just let them roll normal and use the Ultra-Marine as the template. Fluff some rules about how they are the remaining survivors of Fluff Legion, and are now without direction, perhaps very angry with thoughts that they were betrayed by Imperial guard, another chapter.

then if you do go to DW they could become black shields

Atomic_Pope said:

Deathwatch kill-teams do sometimes have to work with Inquisitorial agents (and Navigators can be such). Bear in mind that Navigators are very experienced in matters of the warp and have obscure knowledge and unique powers. So I could see scope at least a few missions involving a navigator. It depends on how long term this campaign is. A single mission mini-campaign would be easier to explain a navigator's presence.

jareddm said:

If i recall corectly Alpha Legion has also been known to disguise themselves as other space marine chapters and use there tactics to cover their tracks.

ItsUncertainWho said:

*spoiler*

Also if you read the HH there is some evidence that while the AL are a traitor legion they may still have the emperor and his visions best interest at heart, it was actually a good book.

I for one would be very interested in any supplemental material you may put together on this whole Red Corsair Chaos Pirate thing.