Would expanding Melee Weapon Training (Universal) to include Melee Weapon Training (Primitive) harm game balance in any way? In general, it looks like it'll just save most PCs 100 or 200 xp.

Conceptually, I have a hard time seeing anyone capable of using high-tech versions of simple melee weapons of not being able to use the simple weapons the designs are based upon. In this line of thinking, note that Thrown Weapon Training (Universal) already covers the Primitive group, and this change would simply parallel it.

Universal includes Primitive. For proof, look at the AM, who starts with a primitive weapon and only has Melee Training (Universal).

Kalec Fash said:

I'll counter that with the Astropath, who starts with a melee weapon but no melee training talents. So either both have training that doesn't appear in their starting talents, or both start with a weapon they can't use.

I say that universal should cover primitive melee weapons as primitive weapons are commonly used in the Imperiums armed forces, even Space Marines use primitive weapons. Having a sharper edge shouldn't make a sword any harder to use.

It isn't going to unbalance anything as the PCs will be moving to better weapons very soon (unless cut off from their wealth), unless they have a RP reason to not switch. Keeping primitive out of the universal group makes things harder for the person with RP reasons, without improving things for anyone else.

Bilateralrope said:

Or, sometimes, a staff is just a symbol of office/walking cane for a blind man...

I would say you would need to learn to fight with a normal weapon before you advance so I already included it.

We definitely assume that a character should have the necessary talents to use his/her starting gear. So the Arch-Militant in our group is proficient with Primitive weapons.

(Consider that the Navigator (to use but one example I happen to recall from memory) can buy Melee Weapon Primitive as an advance at Rank 1, and can then buy Universal at Rank 4. That might suggest that they are meant to be separate. In fact, the description of the Melee Weapon Talent makes it pretty clear.)

Having said that, our group also feels that it makes little sense to exclude Primitive Melee Weapons from the Melee Weapon (Universal) group as Primitive Melee weapons are readily available to your "average" Imperial citizen. However, for Basic and PIstol weapons, we feel that it makes sense to have Primitive Weapons as a separate group because your average imperial citizen would not likely learn how to use a muzzle-loading flintlock or a bow.

Either way, I don't see how it would be unbalancing to lump it in with the Universal Talent. As you pointed out, it's 100XP (maybe 200XP at most?)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

True a staff can be just an office/walking cane for a blind man, but an Astropath starts with either a shock staff or a mono sword. What sense is there to a class starting with a best quaility weapon when they can not buy the skill to use it till rank 3?

Primitive Melee Weapon Training also includes such things that aren't in themselves weapons but weaponized by the character, hands, feet, elbows, a rifle butt, or a power rod.

Improvised weapons are the only reason for the two being seperate. In my mind as previously stated there is no significant difference between weilding a monoblade and an ordinary blade to justify the two talents.

There is however a difference in how well a person might fight in hand to hand combat or how well they are at improvising a weapon when needed.

Kalec Fash said:

Actually - look at the "Universal" talent, and see what comes under it. Primitive is not mentioned, everything else is. Ergo, Primitive isn't covered by the Universal talent.

If I were a GM, I'd allow a character who has this skill the use of Primitive melee weapons also.

I mean, come on. It says " Universal ".

And don´t forget the starting weapon of the AM gets the mono upgrade so it doesn´t count as primitiv any more

boooh said:

While that does remove the primitive quality, that doesn't change the training required to use it.

If it did change the training required, which individual category would cover a primitive weapon with the mono upgrade ?

Bilateralrope said:

Aye, weapons with Mono still count under the Primitive Weapon Training talent.

Come on guys a pimitive weapon with a mono edge loses its primitive quality thus making it non primitive. It is covered under the universal talent. I am not saying it makes perfect sense but that's how the rules have it play out.

Anything with the primitive quality is a primitive weapon. Swords, axes, mauls, whatever are primitive examples of weapons. Mono edged swords, axes, and however you want to describe that mono maul are non primitive and covered under the universal talent.

If you wanted to mono an improvised weapon then yeah it becomes a non primitive weapon. Though I wouldn't see the point unless you wanted to take a bone from some xeno and apply the mono property to it just to have some scary ass weapon to wield about.

Though I supposed if you just fought some scary as xeno or daemon with bad ass claws I could see the argument for monoing its primitive claws and turning it into a claw weapon.

Read the armoury entry for mono RT pg. 134.

Ok, even though I disagree with the logic of it as the weapons groups don't allow for anything beyond power shock chain and primitive outside of exotics which probably don't apply here there are two examples I can think of that turn primitive weapons into non primitive weapons. One is the mono upgrade that can be applied to an existing weapon. The other is the lathe blade upgrade which isn't so much an upgrade as a weapon forged in and of itself.

So as previously stated the mono weapons are still primitive in that they are not power shock or chain, but don't act as primitive weapons because they aren't. It looks more like a case where the upgrades are there to solely counter the fact that they are primitive when compared to the aforementioned groups.

Which begs the question why everyone doesn't just start with melee weapon training (primitive). Its a wide category that covers low tier weapons one would as previously stated have some knowledge of. In fact I would feel a lot safer teaching someone to use a primitive weapon before handing them a chain sword and pushing 'em out the door.

So, I sit corrected in terms of what is a primitive weapon in game terms and how the primitive quality is applied. Lumping them together though eh I am on the fence now but would probably just house rule everyone starts with melee weapon training (primitive). It just makes sense in this case I think.

NGL said:

A mono-sword isn't wielded any differently than a normal primitive one, though. The way you handle it doesn't change, so I would think the same training still applies.

Or, in short:

• Primitive sword = Primitive Weapon Training
• Mono sword = Primitive Weapon Training
• Universal Weapon Training = Universal, hence including Primitive

[edit] Nvm, I've just seen that Primitive Weapon Training is indeed listed as an extra skill in the advancement tables, so it could not have been an oversight on part of the design team. This is ... irritating, to say the least. I'd houserule it. *shrugs*

Interestingly, in Deathwatch, the very same talent does include Primitive weapons. Ascension has a similar talent (but by another name, called "Weapon Expertise") which also encompasses training in the same weapon groups, again including Primitive. That doesn't have to mean much, considering the systems' mechanics differ greatly in cases, and we had official confirmation that some things just work differently than in other games even if they share the same name, but I guess it's worth pointing out.

NGL said:

Because melee weapons still require a lot of training to use well. There are a few reasons why someone might not have had that training:

- They grew up somewhere peaceful (it could happen, even in 40k).

- They preferred guns.

- Nobody would trust them with a weapon. For example, why would you train an unsanctioned psyker so that he is harder to kill ?

So I don't see why it should be added to their starting talents. But:

In fact I would feel a lot safer teaching someone to use a primitive weapon before handing them a chain sword and pushing 'em out the door.

If they do have training in melee weapons then, unless the weapon is really unusual, I can't see why someone wouldn't start with a primitive weapon. So, even though the RAW disagrees, I have always included primitive melee weapons in melee weapon training (universal).

Another one for you. Or to throw a monkey wrench into the works.

How do you play a switched off Power sword then? Primitive required and the Rogue Trader forgets how to use a sword correctly all of the sudden, or does it still play out with Universal?

In my opinion universal would include primitive wepons. However, I would say that some people would only know how to use primitive wepons and need to be traind to use some of the more high tech-wepons. As such i would say that whilst universal will have primitive wepons included in it it is still possible for primitive wepons to keep their own talent.

Examples; ferral world warrior will know how to use a sword (primitive) but will need to be trained to use a chain wepon (universal), yet a person trained to use a chain wepon straight off will allready know how to use a sword thanks to this training (universal).

P.S. sorry bout this im on some hardcore meds and im a bit out of it. (hospitals are fun)

^ That's what I was thinking, too - until I noticed that the advancement paths do include Primitive as a separate talent, but not the other weapon types. :I

To quote someone else: "Houserules. Houserules everywhere."

PS: Enjoy your trip.