I'm not trying to create controversy, but I've read a lot about how a Heavy Bolter with Metal Storm Bolts is totally the sick-nasty against Hordes. I crunched some numbers, and the Heavy Flamer isn't doing bad at all by comparison. Which is to say it is better. I'm not great at math, but bear with me.

For the sake of my this example, I assumed two Devastator Marines with the Horde-killing special ability from their Specialization, and the Mighty Shot Talent. The one with the Heavy Bolter has purchased his first BS Advance, and the one with the Heavy Flamer has Cleanse & Purify. They are both starting characters. The targets will be assumed to be Hordes of some kind of minion with a total Toughness Bonus + Armor Rating of 16.

If the Marine with the Heavy Bolter hits a horde ten times, and can easily damage the Horde with 2D10+10 (Tearing, pen 4), he will deal 20+1D5 damage to the Horde. He hits between zero (as unlikely as that is) and ten times, dealing up to 25 damage. The average number of hits depends on various factors, such as the size of the Horde and the Marine's actual BS... which makes it a little beyond my ability to figure out. But that's the best result. Each hit counts as two hits, and 1D5 is added to the final damage.

The Marine with the Heavy Flamer will automatically hit 8+2D5 times, and if he can easily damage the Horde with 2D10+8 (pen 6), each successful hit will deal 2 damage to the Horde. He hits between ten and 18 times, dealing up to 36 damage. If he gets an average number of hits (roughly 13), he will deal 26 damage.

The way it looks to me is that the Heavy Flamer has a higher minimum and peak damage than the Heavy Bolter. As I said, I don't know about averages. But I think I know what I'm requisitioning the first time I fight some Genestealers.

The issue with the heavy bolter is that the devastator horde killing talent adds 1D5 to each 'Hit' not each 'Attack' so a Devastator with the right talents and a Heavy Bolter with Metal Storm rounds can actually inflict 90-100 magnitude damage with a single shot and do it at 5 times the range of a Heavy Flamer.

Baron Throatpunch said:

Devastator with a reasonable BS, firing a Heavy Bolter on full auto at a reasonable range is gonna be pushing an effective roll of 100. Given an average die roll of 50 is gonna get 6 hits plus 6 hits for Unrelenting Devastation and 6 Hits for it being an Explosive weapon gives you 18 hits. A Heavy flammer will hit 8 times plus 1d5 plus 1d5 for Unrelenting Devastation or 8 plus 2 plus 3 (rounding down and rounding up to even out) or 13 times on average - if I do my math correctly I think Hvy Bolter Trumps Heavy Flammer. Where do you get the 1 hit = 2 damage on a flammer? For unrelenting Devastation, they get the + 1d5 hits instead which I believe you already accounted for.

Wargamer:

Unrelenting Devastation inflicts 1D5 extra damage if you're using a weapon with the Blast Quality "after all other hits have been applied."

Darq:

1 hit is 2 damage for a Heavy Flamer because that's how Unrelenting Devastation works if you're not using a weapon with the Blast Quality. 1D5 of those hits come from Cleanse and Purify, and the rest come from the way Damaging Hordes with Flame Weapons works on page 360.

Baron Throatpunch said:

Yup missed that, thank you!

Darq said:

Hey, no problem. My thanks to you, for working out the fact that it'd basically be a 100 target number for the Heavy Bolter. I checked the Horde size modifiers, and of course there's the Auto-Fire bonus and the fact that the Marine's BS would be... well 55, the way I statted him, unless he also gets a bonus from his Chapter (like, if he's a Dark Angel) in which case it'd be 60. I appreciate you pointing me in that direction.

Baron Throatpunch said:

The potential only goes up from there. Both flame and autofire weapons benefit from Tide of Iron (double damage against hordes) and any armour with Death is Joy (+1 magnitude damage per hit against hordes)... but I think I've found the highest destructive potential in melee of all places, though it takes a really high-end character and a lot of luck to achieve this.

Assault Marine with some kind of power weapon, Berserk Charge, Lightning Attack, Preternatural Speed, Thunder Charge and Whirlwind of Death. On the charge, the character deals 1d5+1 unarmed attacks against the horde, plus his three normal attacks from the power weapon. Each attack causes 1 hit, +1 hit for every 2 degrees of success, and the power weapon doubles that on those attacks. Assuming WS 61, the character can hit a maximum of 5 times with any given melee attack on the charge (roll a 01 gives 8 degrees of success on WS61 with a +20 bonus for charging), and due to Preternatural Speed, can use Lightning Attack while charging. While an extreme example, if the character scores 6 unarmed attacks and hits on a 01 with all 9 attacks available to him, he'll deal 66 magnitude damage, doubled due to Whirlwind of Death to an insane score of 132. If he's wearing armour with the Death is Joy history, then that goes up further to 210. With a single Charge Attack.

And it doesn't stop there - the Black Templars squad attack ability grants the potential for even more attacks to add to that maelstrom of carnage.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Somehow I hadn't even thought of Death is Joy. That's pretty great. And while I was initially talking about starting characters... I don't think even Storm of Iron would bump a Heavy Flamer up to 210 damage. That's just crazy.

And I think I like it.

Darq said:

I am pretty sure this is incorrect. Explosive weapons only deal one extra hit per attack.

"Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional hit." page 359

So in your example that'd be 7 hits, 6 hits via Degrees of Success and one bonus hit for being an explosive attack. Also Unrelenting Devestation doesn't give extra hits, it gives +1 Magnitude damage per hit. In this example it would be a total of 14 Magnitude damage. Also, remember Unrelenting Devastation only functions in Squad Mode.

GalagaGalaxian said:

I was adding the extra 'hit' from the explosive as a single extra point of damage to the magnitude at the end, but it shoulde be counting as a hit, which you'd then roll damage for as standard, and if it hurts add the extra one point of damage against the horde for a total of 2 damage against the horde- your explanation makes a lot of sense to me.

The whole 100 damage to a horde initially struck me as a bit over the top I have to admit- I have to keep reminding myself this game's starting point is 14k xp into a DH character...

After reading carefully...

If using a weapon with the blast capability instead add 1d5 magnitude damage (after all other hits have been applied)

Problem: Metal Storm Bolts is both a multi hitter as a blast weapon so you'd have to choose one.

Heavy Flamer indeed is (2d5+8) x2 Magnitude Damage

Explosive Weapons add one extra HIT, not magnitude damage so a Marine with a Heavy Bolter could score 11 Hits before doubling

So a Metal Storm Heavy Bolter would inflict (Hits +1) x2 (Blast 2) +1d5
So if the Marine would hit 10 times it would be: (10+1) x2 +1d5 = 22+1d5

Including the Storm of Iron Talent it would be (same scenario) (10+1) x3 +1d5 = 33+1d5

Explanation:
The Metal Storm Heavy Bolter has the Blast (2) Qualtity so will deal 2 magnitude Damage per Hit, since its an Explosive Weapon it deals an additional Hit.
So effectively (Hits +1) x2

Unrelenting Devastation specifically states instead of doubling it deals 1d5 extra Magnitude Damage when considering Blast (X) weapons

I'm not sure how Storm of Iron fits in....its eitherL

(Hits+1) x3 +1d5
(Hits+1) x4 +1d5

The additional 1d5 for Unrelenting Devastation states after all other hits have been resolved so it could also be ((Hits+1)x2 +1d5) x2

Perhaps we should ask for an official ruling...

And it doesn't stop there - the Black Templars squad attack ability grants the potential for even more attacks to add to that maelstrom of carnage.

To be honest, I think I'd write a program to do the rolling for me if I used that combination. Then again, it really sounds fun to play just to hear your GM's jaw dropping on the table, so... I guess I will...

By the way, it seems that the power weapon inflicts only one additional hit, not one for every two DoS.

Cifer said:

@Santiago

Yeah, upon rereading that part of my post isn't worded too well. I was referring to N0-1's line

Each attack causes 1 hit, +1 hit for every 2 degrees of success, and the power weapon doubles that on those attacks.

The power weapon only inflicts one additional hit, not one additional per 2 DoS. Doesn't it?

The more I read it, the more I get the feeling Deathwatch could really benefit from a clarification section in the Errata as it was appended to that of DH.

Cifer said:

All melee weapons cause one extra hit per 2 DoS, the Power Weapon, because its awesome, deals one additional hit, this is simular to the Explosive (X) type weapons...


EDIT: Moved the discussion to Rules Questions

GalagaGalaxian said:

I'm pretty sure its one additional hit per hit. Each hit is a separate occurance. If the Bolter hits 6 times, it is 6 separate hits.

Darq said:

That is inferring words into the rule though. The rule as written just gives one extra hit total, not one extra hit per hit.

Baron Throatpunch said:

Just want to point out that Death is Joy says "increase the damage to a Horde's Magnitude by 1 with any successfull attack against a Horde." Unrelenting Devastation adds +1 damage to each hit.

Potentially better than the heavy flamer would be 2 basic flamers, 4d5+10 hits. Or is there some reason you can't use 2 of them at the same time???

It requires the Two-Weapon wielder talent?

Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic) + Weapon Proficiency (Flamer) + the built in recoil gloves would let you use two standard flamers. Since they're flame weapons, at most they'd have the two weapon wielding penalty apply as a bonus on the agility check for them to move out of the way (as opposed to a direct to-hit penalty), but if they're a horde, they can't dodge- they just catch on fire

GlamdringRST said:

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I noticed it last night as I was reading myself to sleep, but hadn't been on the forums in a bit.

Also, while it would generate more hits to use two normal Flamers, the damage potential of each individual weapon is (perhaps needless to say) lower. And Devastator Marines don't have the ability to pick up Two Weapon Wielder.

However Assualt Marines attacking hordes should totally offhand a Hand Flamer for some tasty extra magnitude damage.

Baron Throatpunch said:

Devastator marines do get mighty shot and cleanse and purify (along with the unrelenting devastation), which should add to damage. Any marine can get any talent through elite advances.

A good share of the benefit of flamers against non-hordes is the catching on fire aspect (makes them either waste actions putting themselves out or running around screaming on fire, plus the fatigue they take). Even for hordes all you need to do is 1 damage to take away a magnitude.

Ah Unrelenting devastation only works with heavy weapons.

Also, the two weapon weilder is a full action, while firing a heavy flamer is a half action.