Bilateralrope said:

Same, they are a business and limited by what's economically feasible after all.

Anyway... generally I don't like Space Marines (as has been likely well documented already) but I must admit Iron Hands and rediscovering the Salamanders has giving me some begrudging fondness for the genetically engineered killing machines. As for the fan PDFs themselves... Iron Hands feels kind of lack lustered but perfectly usable. It doesn't quite have the same level of polish as the Salamander writeup.

With regards to the Salamander chapter document, other then a few minor typos, I like what I see. One naggling little question that is likely the result of my lack of knowledge about some of the Deathwatch trappings; for Erudite of the Drake, the requirement is "possess a forgehammer." Granted, if it's a selectable stand-in for the combat knife, it can't be that expensive to replace (compared to say, a Salamander Scale Mantle) but do you lose access to the ability if you lose your hammer for whatever reason?

Let me start off by saying that the Salamander PDF is really nicely put together, and I can tell he put a lot of work into it.

But, I don't think they are balanced.

+5 Str + 5 T, -5 Ag + 5 Fel. 2 Very strong bonuses, a minor penalty (for any but an assault marine) and a minor bonus. When you include the -10 dodge (along with the other Ag based skills listed), you see that the penalty to Ag is alleviated by the fact that you just won't be using those skills (and the Ag + pilot penalty means Assault marines would be a poor choice anyway). Storm wardens are the only Chapter to get +5 Str, and they have to take the lesser bonus of +2 Wounds for their second stat. When you apply the Unnatural characteristics, +5 Str/T is really strong (of course, nothing stops Smurfs from picking that...).

Giving them bonus Flame weapon training is irrelevant, as it is included in Astartes Weapon training. Throwing Resistance(Heat) is fluff correct, but an added bonus to an already very good stat line. And I completely forgot the free skill of Tech Use. That's an 800 xp bump for non-Techmarines.

Promethian deliverance is a fairly strong talent for 500 xp.

Rite of the Forgefather is questionable, but the requirement for Famed might offset that. Famed gives access to Terminator Armor as well, plus the basic combat shield is available at Distinguished. The Adamantine Mantle, which the Forgefather cloak is a significantly better version of requires Hero. I'd say, Forgefather could be bumped as well (the wargear item requires Hero without the talent).

Why do they get such a discount on Signature Wargear? 100xp discount for the base talen is minor, but 500xp on both Master and Hero? Not to mention Hero access 2 Ranks before everyone else.

Skipping the psychic powers, as I haven't compared the other chapter powers yet.

Vehement Stand is the Dark Angel solo mode on steroids. The Fatigue penalty is irrelevant when you realize marines fatigue every 10 minutes of no combat. Doubling Toughness AND full auto or Multiple Attacks as a half action? Really? Doubling Toughness alone is much better than 6 free wounds, as it applies to EVERY attack as long as the ability is maintained.

The Squad Attack ability is admittedly pretty poor, but the defensive power can be really strong. It combines the existing Codex Regroup power (although it only allows Ag bonus move instead of 2x Ag) with a massive defensive boost. +4 Armor, +2 T, +4 AP to cover, +10 Dodge + 10 Parry. Ignoring the cover, you have marines with soak in the 20-24 range, nearing 40 behind light cover. It's listed as Sustained, which means it is available for an entire mission. Full Action to activate prevents the Salamander from doing much offensively for one turn, but he's nearly invulnerable. It's just a delaying tactic on it's own, but combine with the Tac Marine's Tactical Expertise and you have an incredibly resilient squad.

I'm not sure what the Tu'Shan's is trying to do. It has a Suspensor, but Flamers can't be fired at Semi or Full Auto, so it's kind of pointless. Twin Linking a flamer seems iffy, as you're hosing down an area anyway. And how it gains Felling is not really explained. Requires Hero, so this isn't really a big concern.

Again, I'm just giving an opinion here, but I think calling that balanced is a bit of a stretch

I posted it in House Rules, I think there's one or two more there, but here's my take on the Mentor Legion Chapter

It's still a bit a work in progress, not much there in fluff terms, but enjoy

Hotfoot said:

I really like this, Hotfoot. Your version is very reminiscent of the old school Mentor Legion from waaay back circa White Dwarf 100. There are disturbing signs that GW isn't paying attention to its own perfectly good history on this chapter.

The original writeup had the Mentors as a kind of Green Beret special forces advisors chapter who acted as a clearing house for tactics amongst other chapters, and who also tested new weapons for the mechanicus. This was a neat concept, clearly designed (like the Legion of the Damned) to be used by players as a single squad in an existing army. Plus they had a cool Chapter symbol in the shape of an owl's head.

The newer version of the Mentors, which crops up in more recent white dwarfs and codex books has (for some obscure reason) a red eagle chapter badge, and they are now described as being insular and distrustful of other chapters. This (very short) description is totally at odds with the far cooler write up in the original white dwarf article.

Your version strikes me as being much truer to the original concept. Are you going to do a writeup on the fluff/background on these guys? I'd love to see one!

I only really remember them from the old writeup, someone on the House Rules thread did bring up that they were supposed to be insular and distrustful, which I didn't get. Guess I've just not been following the recent stuff I suppose. Oh well, I do like the other concept better anyway.

But yeah, I do intend to do some more fluff stuff in the near future, I'll make a post when I've got it done. Thanks for the kind words.

Radomo said:

Hmmm, having leafed through the Chapter section in my local bookstore (I really have to decided whether or not I want to buy this book,) I have to say I see your point. Perhaps instead they get a +5 to Toughness and either Fel or Int (representing their popularity with the common man or their craftmanship) and the AG penality. That way we can keep the resistance to fire.

As for the rest... I can't really offer my own two cents since I need a little more experience with the systems. After reading it over again I see what you're saying about Promethean Deliverance though. My solution would be to just cut out the bit about requesting craftsmanship higher then your rank would allow. Master-craft stuff isn't cheap to make, so you can't just hand to anyone even if they are a pretty good Space Marine.

Skallagrim over at Dark Reign has, despite his drug-induced spaciness, pulled some of the custom, fan-made Chapters into a pretty little supplement. I'm hoping that he asked the authors, but it's over in DR Contributions on the forum and also the main site.

Kage

Psion said:

My fix would be as you said, +5 T and +5 Int. Move Tech Use to the Chapter advancement list for 400xp. Resistance heat is fine. I'm not sure how to offset that, as the penalty to AG skills is pretty drastic. Possibly just keeping the -5 Ag would do it.

Promethian Deliverance goes to 1k OR restrict it to the half price flame/melta weapons.

The Master/Hero Signature wargear talents are removed from their list. I'm not sure what the justification is for giving them early access to Command is, but I'm tempted to leave it. The Ultrasmurfs need competition for leader spots.

The Solo and Squad mode abilities need to be re-done. They are much too strong (except the attack pattern). With Tactical Expertise, their Defensive pattern is just crazy.

They need some trappings other than combat knife replacements along the vein of the other Chapters (+3 to whatever skill).

Radomo said:

Command may be to represent their ability as the leaders of the people of Nocturne and their clot/influence amongst the masses. Their reputation for public good could mean they have a tendency to get (normal) people to do as they wish.

I don't know, the GM could also rule that distance could be a factor for Promethian Deliverance as the Talent specifically lists having special access to the chapter's foundries on Nocturne. For example, if the Kill Team is accompanying a Rogue Trader to keep the Calixis/Jericho route open and the Salamander places his order while on the Calixis/Kronus side of the Warp Gate... yeah, don't hold your breath buddy. Reading it over again... I'm not entirely sure this is a connection having a Peer should apply to.

The Peer Talent is described as "Knowing how to deal with a particular organization." Which to me means the player and members of the group regularly meet for drinks and the organization can be persuaded to do the occasional favor for the PC. I imagine you'd have to be a REAL good friend to have access to one of their forges. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it's "right to use one of their forges," not "right to use one of their forges AND borrow one of the local smiths."

As for trappings and the mode abilities... meh, I'm more of a Rogue Trader guy so I can't really help you there.

Apologies for double posting but this thread needs to be kept on the first page...

Anyway, while we're on the topic of bringing Chapters newcomers like myself don't know alot about, would anyone consider statting out the loyalist chapters from the Dorian Heresy? Yes, that fan-made mirror-mirror switch where traitor chapters remained loyal, many of the loyalist chapters joined Chaos, the Ultramarines seceeded from the Imperium, and all sorts of other cool stuff happened. Granted, it would require groups to decide which storyline they're going to follow but other then that....

Ranek7212 said:

The name was actually a dig a green peace and their flagship, the Rainbow Warrior, GW don't take to kindly to them enviromental types roun' here...

Zamnil Blackaxe said:

With a sci-fi setting that depicts gigantic warmachines belching huge clouds of black smoke, I would imagine not.

Anyway, moving on... Anyone else have any more ideas to make the Salamanders more balanced and what not? I have to say I am actually serious about trying to play one of these guys and I still really don't care for Space Marines that much.

The Novamarines (2nd ultramarines founding) I thought would be a pretty good addition to the current setting, from memory many of them serve in the Deathwatch and have a lot of experience fighting xenos, or at least fighting Tau.

MKX said:

Hmmm, since we already have a few chapters with a history of fighting Nids and Chaos listed in the RPG, it make senses to have marines experienced with the third big military presence in the Jericho Reach region.

With the Salamanders, given how prominent T is as a stat generally for Astartes and that there's not a huge amount of reason for the Salamanders to be tougher than anyone else, my inclination is to give them actually pretty tame Chapter modifiers.

That is: +5 Fel and Resistance (Heat).

Squad & Solo-mode abilities, I'm not terribly excited either way. They're codex, but then they're also pretty 'stoic/shrewd/calculating'. Solo-mode, IMO, could simply be a +10 Willpower bonus when working alone. (Remember the original exception to being the last man standing from the 'Codex: Armageddon'?) Makes the Salamander a dependable choice if you give them a solo-task. Squad Mode? Something conciliatory, I'd guess, but due to their emphasis on properly thinking things through something to put them slightly at odds with anyone making a rash action? Hmm...

Their Chapter's Curse, however, shouldn't be about their 'attitude'. I think that should be represented by their Demeanour. If anything, having read Kyme's very insightful novels, I'd say that their prime 'curse' should be their superstition. Graham McNeil's primarchs note it about Vulkan in the novel "Fulgrim" and Nick Kyme has hugely played it up as both a severe strength in their Chapter (decent librarians and thoughtful marines), but a massive flaw too.

With that in mind, could I posit something about crippling omens and increasing superstition? A -10 Willpower penalty when confronted with 'ominous' situations? Of course these ideas aren't quite balanced (at all), but I think they're much more in-line with the Chapter's feel than the current stuff.

Regarding the Chapter Skills/Talents, I'd recommend:
- Access (up) to things like Barter +10, Charm +10 or Common Lore (any two) +10
- Tech-Use, Medicae, Demolitions and Pilot (Any One) at a rough 200/300XP discount versus access normally. (Emphasise the independent thinking/training of Salamanders, but lacking in full-on, entry-level expertise)
- Scholastic Lore (Any one) up to +10, and also Scholastic Lore (Legend) up to +10. They're not steeped in mystery, but it's heavy in their background. They're a fairly mysterious chapter.
- Talented (Intimidate)

The last point is a very simple one, on that could be a factor even for their chapter benefits. Why? They look blooming demonic!

And, as a final point, Nocturne's a Deathworld, not a Feudal World.

Otherwise, this stuff's really cool. I rather like the suggestions I've made above, can anyone see any glaring errors in logic/theme/balance I've made in thinking them up?

bumping for the emperor

I really like the Salamanders as a chapter.

Some years ago I played them in the tabletop even if they lost every match because of their -Ag.

But when I found the Salamanders PDF I read it at once and then decided to ignore it, because to me it seems unplayable.

Umbranus, what do you think of the idea of them just having "Resistance (Heat)" and +5 Fel as their beginning characteristic modifiers?

Then add something like 'Promethean Creed' ('help humanity help itself'?) as their Chapter Demeanour and then something more heavily involved with their superstitious nature or the lingering legacy-of-Vulkan being their Curse?

-1 Init never struck me as sensible way-back-when, as they were much more subtly different, but still strikingly similar, to other Codex Chapters. It wasn't so much 'who they were' which was different, but 'how they do it', so to speak.

Screaming Geckos, an assault chapter with a focus on aggression.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=385453&efpag=0#385482

Xisor said:

Much better balanced.

But I think I would keep close to how it's with the Spacewolves. They get two rather weak but fitting stat boni (Per and Fel) and their Highened sences: smell to balance them with the other chaper's stronger Boni.

For the Salamanders I would change the per bonus to Int (fitting as they have a renown for being master craftsmen. Trade Armorer would be Ag, but as that is a combat relevant stat it would be too much with the resistance: Heat as well) and change the imp. Senses to Resist: Heat.

Your Chapter Demeanor sounds nice, but perhapt we should add something. Say make it so he can use it as a fate point as long as it's altruistic what he's doing. Only being usable when he helps humans help themselves will seldom be triggered I guess.

And it should't be too similar to the SW's demeanor, which is about protecting others, too. In a way at least.

I'll add some suggestion for the solo mode ability later.

As english is not my native language writing longer texts sometimes takes me a while.

Here is something I think could work as a Solo Ability for the Salamanders.

Perhaps some of the numbers need to be adjusted.

Especialy about the tearing quality for flamer and melta I'm not shure if it's overpowered.

But as in RAW all weapons are inferior to the Bolter I think it's ok.

Self Reliance

All Salamanders are trained in smithing and the maintenance of their gear. The Battlebrother gains Trade (Armorer) as a trained skill and chooses one field of mastery from Melta, Flamer or Powerarmor. All testes to repair or maintain equipment of the chosen mastery may be rerolled by the marine and he may un-jam weapons he has mastery in with a half action.

In addition their stubbornness makes them less vulnerable to cohesion damage and thus the battlebrother gains his Rank times 10 bonus to all tests to prevent cohesion damage to the kill-team if he is the squad leader.
This bonus remains active when the Battle-brother is noch in Solo Mode.
Improvement:
At Rank 3 the Battle-Brother may choose one additional mastery from the list and his penetration with weapons he has mastery in is increased by 2.
At Rank 5 the marine counts all gear he has a mastery in as having a quality one step better than it is. (No effect if already master crafted)
At Rank 7 he gains the last mastery and weapons of the flamer and melta category gain the tearing quality when used by the Battle-Brother

I made a Grey Knight chapter for my brother in law, This is what I came up with I relied heavily on wikis and fansites for the background. Feel free to use or change this as you wish to fit your games. With the exception of gernades in certain situations I limited the Grey Knights to strictly melee from my experiances playing them on the table top minitures though that was some time ago so im sure those rules are changes, but in my mind a Grey Knight uses his forcepike more often then not. I used the Librarian specialty for advance ment since all Grey Knights with the exception of a Chaplain are psykers and basicly the same.

GreyKnights do not have any affiliation to thier previous Chapter, esentially they have been mind wiped by the Schola Prognium. GreyKnight Conditioning Grants this Bonus to stats instead
+5 ws +5 will power
The Following are Grey Knight Codex Abilities- Meaning simular to Deathwatch abilities since you will not be getting any of those. There is Grey Knight Chapter abilities as well further down page.

Solo Mode Ability-DaemonHunter
Grey Knight channles his psychic power into his Nemesis Force Pike and wields it with leathal ability against a Daemon.+10 to all attacks made with the Pike vs a Daemon, The Daemon engaged will not break from combat with the Grey Knight until he or the Grey Knight are Dead.

Squad Mode Ability-Righteous Charge
Grey Knight can channel his energy to charge his foes in a blur of speed. Only able to use the frist round of combat a Grey Knight can charge a foe 4x his typical sprinting distance in a single round and make a Melee attack with Nemesis Force Pike.

Skills- REMOVE the Following skills from the deathwatch sheet
Concealment
Forbiden Lore Xenos
Cipher-Chapter Runes
Deceive
Disguise
Gamble
Silent Move
Common Lore: Deathwatch

ADD the following Skills
Cipher-Ordo Malleus
Common Lore: Grey Knights
Forbidden Lore: Malleus
Invocation
Psyniscience
Tracking (+10 when tracking daemons/daemon hosts)

Add the following Talents
Slayer Of Daemons
Strong Minded
Unshakable Faith

Power Armor- Do not roll on the table on pg 162 instead this is your power armors abilities

Liber Daemonica, A copy of the sacred text is infused on your power armor granting you immunity to corruption.

There are no specialties with in the Grey Knights, Use the Librarian Specialtiy for now with the following changes
Choose only 1 power from the Librarian specialty use the following in addition
Call Item(Nemesis Force Pike Specific) pg 165 DH
Malleus HammerHand pg 129 Ascension-hands become powerfull deamon beatdown weapons
DaemonsBane pg 131 Ascension-banish daemonic entity
His Will Be Done pg 132(Daemon Specific)-#allies = to will power bonus get free attack on target daemon.

Starting Equipment remains mostly the same except Grey Knights are only allowed to use Melee weapons. I might make the exception of a gernade when dealing with a horde or orcs or tyranid but no range weapons. Instead you are given a Nemesis Force Pike and a powersword for secondary weapon.

Nemesis Force Pike-1d10+7(double strength bonus, triple vs daemons) + psy rating to attack and damage roll. Is considered Sanctified,Powered,and a Relic.

Additional Restrictions- Grey Knights can not enter squad mode with a Deathwatch member until they meet following prerequisits-
Common Lore: Deathwatch
Forbidden Lore: Xenos

Another GreyKnight can go into squad mode with another GreyKnight however.

Here is the GreyKnight Specific Squad Mode

Malleus Malificarium-All Grey Knights in support range are immune to knockdown(from anything less then a tacticle nuke), +10 to all Melee attacks and double damage to daemons and warp entities.
Improvement:If battle brother of rank 4 or greater present +20 to all melee attacks and triple damage to daemons and warp entities.

Additional Information.

Deathwatch and the Grey Knights are kind of black and white when it comes to tactics. Think of the Deathwatch as a unit of special forces and the Grey Knights as the Crusaders of old charging into battle. This coupled with the mind cleansing techniques of the Ordo Malleus make the Grey Knights alot more of a striaght forward combatant, refusing to use range weapons, stealth, or any kind of deceit to defeat their enemies.
Of the three chamber militants of the Inquisiton, Adaptus Soratas/Storm Troopers, Deathwatch and Grey Knights being the three, The Grey Knights have the most singular and specific purpose. Rarly are they sent into a situation that is not dire and invovling chaos and daemons. When used in this campaign they will be part of the Tyrant Star Cabal which the Deathwatch Characters are part of as well. A cabal is a mix of Ordoses that have a unique and singular goal in which they pool their resources

Grey Knight Solo Mode Ability

Righteous Zeal-Same as Black Templars
I know its not original but its in the book so adds legitimacy.

Grey Knight Chapter Advances
Name Xp Prereq
Interrogation 200
Interrogation +10 200 Interrogation
Interrogation +20 200 Interrogation +10
Hatred(Daemons) 500
Frenzy 400
Mental Rage 800 Frenzy
Peer(Ordo Malleus)500
Good Reputation(Ordo Malleus) 800 Peer(Ordo Malleus)
*Word of the Emperor 1,500 Rank 2

*As per Ascension DH book Daemonsbane:Word of the Emperor.

Xisor said:

I'm sort of iffy about this proposal. I would at least the Fellowship bonus for an Intelligence bonus if we aren't keeping their penality to agility, I assumed that penality was due to their origins on a world with its gravity in flux so it's not like it's entirely out there... ultimately before I comment further on that I have to ask something of the people who have read the gazetteer for Jericho Reach. Just how useful would a tolerance to extreme heat be in on any of the given planets?

Xisor said:

I admittedly have not read any of the Salmander books (are they good?) so I'm going to withhold a more indepth critique. One thing I would say in defense of the current system though is that it forces players to play, when compared to what I've read of the chapters listed in Deathwatch Core, a different kind of marine. What you suggest sounds interesting, but at the same time... it reminds me of how the Black Templars carry themselves. Subsequently, speaking from the perspective of someone who is still somewhat critical of the RP potential Space Marines provide (compared to the massive crayon box of origins and backgrounds DH and RT characters have,) I'm more in favor of keeping their curse about their attitude as described in the codex/on Lexicanum. It makes them stand out as a group of compassionate paladins that geniunely cares about the common Imperial citizen no matter their station or planet of origin. True, some marines in other chapters have that mindset. But I have yet to read about another Chapter that has that belief drilled into each and every one of their members.

Xisor said:

hmmm, I have give you points here. The skills/talents listing you've come up seems reasonable enough. I would recommend keeping Trade (Armorer) in there somewhere as a great deal is made out of Vulkan's training as a blacksmith and every Space Marine is supposed to dedicate their lives to living like their preferred saint (ie: the Chapter Primarch.)

I think Dark Angles should use the same rules for Plasma Weapons as the Salamanders use Melta weapon.

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone also touched upon the White Scars chapter?